<SIGH> Come hold my hand and tell me to speak up

[NormaSparklerFlashBangAhhh]

I have been interviewing for a junior post at work (it is a skilled post probably paying 30k ish)

The team in this country is v male.

I am (or thought I was) well respected both inside and outside the company.

There is a fair amount of banter, some of it, well, probably sexist.

But the constant insistence from males at all levels of seniority that I 'choose a hot one', the 'was she pretty?. Yes? Then choose her' comments are getting me down.

Advice?

How have you responded so far?

Disgust. Rolling of eyes. Calling them stupid shallow human beings. Pointing out that unlike them I am an intelligent person who will choose the best candidate.

But I really feel that I need to say to managers that this is not acceptable.

I feel like it has gone beyond a joke and is reflecting on the validity of the position of all the female staff - as in - what were the criteria for us to be appointed? Looks?

Okay, so it sounds as though you have been responding to their 'joking' in a similarly jokey way - I know you mean what you are saying, but perhaps they don't?

Would it be more effective to say something calmly and seriously?

That is exactly it. I guess that is why I am here, to put it down in words so that I can formulate what I want to say. Just having to type what I have so far has helped.

"ha ha very funny yes obviously that's what I'm looking for" deadpan might work?

It's so hard with work stuff, i really feel for you. This "hiring a fit one" thing has been the case at everywhere I've worked. Not that anyone hired based on attractiveness (AFAIK) but that was all anyone asked about.

You'd be well within your rights to complain about discrimination or possibly even harassment in relation to this behaviour.

I can completely understand that you might not want to do that if you want to keep reasonably amicable working relationships with these 'men', but the behaviour that you describe is unacceptable and it's quite bizarre that they think they can say these sorts of things, however 'lighthearted' they might think they're being.

You could have a quiet word with HR, or you could point out very nicely to your colleagues that their behaviour is, in law (if you're in the UK), discriminatory and successful claims have been made against companies because of this sort of behaviour. Also point out, though, very seriously, that you really don't like this behaviour: it's belittling, insulting and intimidating.

If that doesn't work, go to HR. If they don't deal with it as a serious matter, think about getting legal advice.

Oh, and keep a diary of what's said, your responses, and what is (or isn't) consequently done about this behaviour.

Have rung my line manger tonight (he has been on leave when all this has been going on and is still on leave, but we are often in touch out of hours on work stuff) and he supports me. We don't have an hr department in this country. We are an outpost.

I guess part of why this is hard is that it crept up. And they do genuinely think it is joking and lighthearted. Bit it has gone too far now for me.

Does that make sense?

Yes it makes perfect sense. You have every right to decide that their 'joke' that you initially tolerated (had to tolerate...), has crossed the line.

(I dont think they are joking by the way)

Some order feminists would probably disagree with me, but i think you should keep bring the debate back to its offensive to women and the best candidate should be hired for the role.

this is one of those times when feminism and business goals align.

Some order feminists = Some other feminists...

It makes perfect sense, Norma.
It's not good that whilst (in UK at least) there are laws in place that are supposed to safeguard against that sort of behaviour - and make quite clear that even 'jokes' can actually be harassment and/or discrimination, so many of us still feel that we have to be 'good humoured' and accepting of this kind of behaviour, which is just so, so, so crap, draining, depressing, disorientating and useless - and occasionally quite threatening.
It's also mildly perplexing that 'men' dim and childish enough to behave like that can find their way into interesting or responsible careers, since the conclusion that one might draw from their behaviour/'humour' is that they wouldn't be capable of finding their own arses with both hands.

See www.stopsexistremarks.org/ for some inspiration.

"Shame they didn't apply that policy when they hired you" should shut them up, although it doesn't exactly strike a blow for feminism

I've had this.

I was interviewing earlier in the year and the post was eventually offered to a young women. A few of the young men kept asking if she was fit, why didn't I interview her in the office meeting rooms so they could see what she looks like, what's her name (so they could check her out on facebook.)

Eventually I told them that was she wasn't coming here to be entertainment for them and I didn't think their jokes were very funny.

Another manager made some silly comment a couple of years ago that it would be so much better if all CVs came in with photos so he could build himself a little hareem. The silence round the table was extrucuating. He 'left to seek other oppurtunities' a month or so later. Asshole.

My stock answer now, to anyone, is to say with a big old smile 'why do you think I would find this funny? I just find it offensive.'

Thank you all.

I am not in work tomorrow (toncilitis has finally done me in) and them am at a client wed and thurs so am going to email big boss (anti-confrontational wuss) tomorrow and then deal with the others on Friday

Nothing to add but best of luck with it - will be sending feministy good vibes your way on Friday.

Yes, good luck - I do like notquitenormal's response above, would that be worth trying?

""Shame they didn't apply that policy when they hired you"

hahahahahahahaha

I used to manage a majority male team and a bit of this was going on. One day I said "I'm sorry, have I accidentally stumbled into the Sky Sports studio? Remember what happened to those sexist bastards..." Was enough to put a stop to it, in front of me anyway.

I had this in a London media company I worked for. The male managers used to print out photos from potential female candidates' MySpace profiles and pass them round for grading. I was young and naive at the time so didn't speak up, but I now wish I had.

I am not convinced they realise they are being sexist. You seem to be regarded as one of the blokes and they are 'aving a larf, as one says.

Like others, I would respond with something like, "I can't pick a hottie because she'd be better looking than you rotten lot, and we would have to up the ante, and trade you lot all in for something more decorative to keep standards up. Now go and make me a coffee, one of you ugly sods, before the political correctness police hear about all this and make you wear mankinis to work to teach you a lesson". Everyone would laugh and you would have put them back in their boxes.

Usually works.

BTW recently when we asked to put people forward for honorary degrees, we wrote down all the fit guys we could think of and googled them to find out if they were from the local area (one of the criteria applied). This is definitely sexist but so what? We had just got fed up of boring old white bearded blokes getting all the gigs and wanted to widen the gene pool.

The point these men always miss is that if a woman is going to "pick a hottie" it's going to be a fit bloke (assuming she's straight).

They wouldn't be so keen if they engaged their logical faculties for one second and realised that now would then. In fact many of them would be horrified and it would make them feel very uncomfortable.

LOL Sardine, of course!

She needs to get that message across.

I like BoffinMum's better especially the Mankinis