Crying

[BertieBotts]

Do you think this is a gendered issue? I mean, there's the whole "boys don't cry" thing and that it's not generally acceptable for men to cry in public unless they're at a funeral or the cup final, but do you think it affects women in different but still specific ways?

I always feel self-conscious if I am crying, especially if I can't help it, and feel it makes me less able to be taken seriously, and tied up in this is a fear that people will think I'm crying on purpose to be manipulative or get attention/sympathy.

I'm not really sure what I'm asking other than do others feel this too? I'm always quite conscious with DS to tell him that it's okay to cry and I never tell him to stop crying, DP does sometimes and it really bothers me, I suppose because of this subtext that crying is a conscious or manipulative thing whereas I see it that it's just a kind of overflow/outpouring of emotion and normally quite unconscious/uncontrollable.

I'm probably just going to sound like a right old softy now but oh well.

Our DS6 has SN and part of that (we think) is that he doesn't cry tears. This has been a massive issue with various caregivers who forget that he can't form tears and say things like 'oh he looked upset but he wasn't really crying so it can't have been that bad'. Really me and DP are the only ones who can tell if he's 'crying'.

So our experience is that tears are amazing things and we wish our boy could show us how he feels. Which (not at all meaning to be nasty) might be something you could share with your DS?

The tears thing is weird. DS had tears from when he was first born and every time he cried he would have them and everyone would be really concerned and almost getting at me for letting him get "so upset" when really he was crying as much as any baby cries. And I was pretty much holding and/or feeding him constantly as a baby anyway, so he never got that upset unless he'd hurt himself.

And the "not really crying" thing is irritating. What is that about? Is it the manipulative thing again? Thinking if there aren't any tears then they're faking it or something? Sorry to hear that people are putting this on your DS :(

I wish I could cry more! My (abusive) mother never showed any emotion except anger and I was brought up to feel any problem I had was a nuisance and I should keep it to myself. I once cried in front of my father and he freaked out and offered me valium.
So no I find it hard to let go enough to cry in public and have acquired a reputation as a tough cookie, which I absolutely hate.

I am a terrible blubber, I cry at the drop of a hat. I cry if I am sad, tired, angry etc etc. I feel it disempowers me. Definitely feel people think less of me, frankly I find it embarrassing but seem unable to stop.

I think men and women get it in different ways. Women are almost expected to cry - but not in a good way, in a kind of: Oh, you're crying, that's because you're a weak little girl just like we always suspected you were sort of way. Men have the boys don't cry thing. The root of it is sexism and it affects both men and women negatively.

dh is much more inclined to cry than me. He's a bit of a softie with sad movies and that sort of thing. Never seems to feel bad about it either. I was brought up in a don't show your emotions type of household and tend only to cry when i am really really upset in a bit of a hopeless way. When dh and i were having major relationship problems he'd get very bothered if I cried (and we'd get into the manipulation thing which was very unhelpful), but actually it was a really important thing for me to learn to feel OK with.

From a feminist perspective I think society in general looks at men and women crying differently even though we cry for the same reasons. We often think a man crying at a tragedy or funeral or some great event etc. as an expression of his great empathy or ability to be in touch with his feelings. In other situations it is considered a weakness, a sign of a lack of control. I think in women society sees crying as simply an expression of their (expected) weakness, or, as the OP alludes, as a manipulation tactic. I don't think women get the brownie points for crying in some situations that men do and their tears (and feelings) are dismissed more readily.

I think the idea that crying is something you can't learn to control (at least in the most part) is patently untrue. But whether you should learn to control it is another issue. When my DCs (both girls) cry over the fact the toy they want is over the other side of the room and they want it now (they are toddlers), or a million other things where they will get better outcomes by calming themselves down and thinking about a solution or accepting that the answer is no, I often tell them not to cry. I don't know if the telling them is that helpful, but I think they will be better served learning to not cry in frustration, if only because you can't communicate as well when you're sobbing. But crying because you are really sad can be cathartic and good communication.

'if only because you can't communicate as well when you're sobbing' This is so true, and frustrates me so much, because I start crying when I'm angry. I don't want to, I just do, and then it becomes impossible for me to speak because I'm crying, and when I think that the person I'm having a fight with will think that I'm sad because I'm crying instead of furious, it makes me So I can't really fight with people, because it'll inevitably end with my leaving the room in frustration because I can't get a word out

I read of a man who always became angry when his wife started crying during arguments because he saw it as manipulation. Once a woman cries, he said, you've lost. Because the only option available to you then is to try and comfort her, everything else makes you a bastard. It speaks of a total obliviousness to the fact that there are many reasons for crying, and that it can be (usually is, I suppose) completely involuntary. In his macho way of thinking, his wife's tears meant that he had hurt the one he was supposed to protect (or that she insinuated this to be the case - they were manipulative tears, after all!), and once that had been established, all he could do was to try and make up for it, never mind what they had been arguing about in the first place I remember it because I was surprised that someone could believe that, and sincerely believe that if someone wanted to stop/never start crying, they could (although I have to admit to sitting across babies bawling because they have dropped their toy on the floor for the hundredth time and thinking that they do it to test me and to show that they're the boss).

Still, other people crying bothers me, because I don't know what to do. I can't ever remember seeing DH cry. I remember seeing my father cry as a child when my grandmother died. It turned my world upside down.

I also cry when I laugh Like a fountain

I agree women crying get dismissed. One of the nastier experiences I had at university was a male don reducing me to tears by systematically telling me every single thing I said was wrong (this in a one-to-one meeting so everything he said was telling me I was wrong, including a couple of things I later learned were factually correct and he was wrong about). He then told me impatiently 'look, you're crying about it!' and said I would never get anywhere if I could not 'take fair criticism'.

He subsequently threw a massive strop when I critcized him for browbeating me. I still have to deal with this man and he has never stopped putting me down in public. I am absolutely sure the fact I ended up crying made him see me as a 'silly girl' as I have had several comments since from his colleagues about how important it is 'for women' to learn to toughen up and accept a more robust system. Incidentally, I don't think I'm particularly easy to browbeat and don't generally end up bursting into tears ... unless someone pushes me to it ...

I think crying is very healthy if you can, it's a good release of emotion for many people.

From a social POV I think we are taught that crying is bad because it's something girls do and girls are pathetic and week so you must be pathetic and week if you cry.

From a personal POV I hate crying and feel terribly uncomfortable when adults cry in front of me. The last few times I've cried I've made damn sure to make it seem like I was crying because I was so angry and not because I was so upset. I know it is stupid. I know that tears aren't a bad thing.

LRD I really, really hope you end up as his boss one day

jing - it would be awesome but will never happen. It's ok though.

I think I'm lucky, that tears don't make me feel uncomfortable. Both my parents were not people who suggested it was ever bad to cry, which I think helps.

I wonder - not sure about this - but maybe it is to do with the way there are two strong-but-opposed social models men are meant to follow - the one is that nurturing is for women (so if someone is crying, especially a child, it is a woman's job to comfort them), and the other is that you, the man, must be a protector and a 'shoulder to cry on'. I think that contradiction might be behind some of the social discomfort about adults crying (and especially men crying), because men don't know which model to follow.

I also think it is to do with the way that society is not communal and collaborative, but we're meant to be in little nuclear families. So you see a crying adult and it's embarrassing, and you feel their emotional needs should be being met within their own family, in private. I think this is some of the issue with abusive relationships, that people get pushed to 'put on a brave face'.

Thinking about it, I said I'm comfortable with crying. But I remember one time my dad hurt me in public, in front of my school friends waiting for the bus. And I was so, so ashamed but the way it came out was that I felt ashamed to cry, like that would be acknowledging something was wrong. So I kept forcing myself not to cry. Even though my mates had seen what happened and were shocked, it was like if I cried, I would be admitting it had really happened, so I couldn't cry. I don't know if that is gendered at all, but I certainly felt as if it had to do with that dynamic where my dad had the power over me.

Sorry, I hope it's ok to post this, it is long and rambly.

Yes all of this makes sense, interesting.

I find I try to hold in my upset even if it then means people aren't aware of having upset me because of all these issues with how crying is perceived. I feel if I say I'm upset I will start crying and so it's easier to pretend to be fine.

It was actually a big thing I had to learn to do when I got together with DP, to get over this thing that if I cry he will think I'm being pathetic or trying to manipulate him. That man's POV in your post MyBrain is interesting because I can really relate to having felt that from the opposite side. If you're arguing with a man who thinks this then allowing yourself to cry changes the power balance in the argument from a relatively equal one to the protector/princess type thing, so you both lose.

:( LRD

I agree with ComradeJing that crying is gendered female, part of the whole feminine behaviour canon that people expect women to enact, while simultaneously looking down on them when they do so.

Sorry, it sounds odd. But the way it manifests itself is shown in the contrasting attitude when women cry whilst enacting "masculine" roles (e.g. being the boss, as an MP, at work, in sport) which is negative - they are seen as weak/unsuited to the role, and when women cry whilst enacting "feminine" roles - when they are upset about a relationship, watching their child/any child in a school play etc which is positive - indeed they may be seen as unnatural/hardhearted for not crying.

bertie that is sad but also makes sense.

elephants - that's it exactly, isn't it?! That's another lightbulb moment for me - 'part of the whole feminine behaviour canon that people expect women to enact, while simultaneously looking down on them when they do so'.

Btw ... thinking about it some more, I know for sure if in the situatiuon where I didn't want to cry in front of my friends, if it had been my mum who'd done it, I would have cried. Because it would have felt different, because your mum shouldn't hurt you, whereas I think if a man makes a woman cry, it's assumed that there must have been a reason why he 'had' to hurt her, you know? Screwed up society.

Crying is definitely gendered.

When men cry, it is the sign that they are in touch with their "feminine" side (ha!) that they are strong enough to show their feelings, it makes them even more masculine.

When women cry, they're just wussy girls.

And because it's gendered, we aren't allowed to cry at work to express our feelings - you're allowed to shout, stomp about, slam doors, bang your fist down - all aggressive physical behaviours, associated with male expressions of frustration, but not cry, because that's associated with female expression.

society says, if a man cries, something very bad must have happened!

I only cry in private. i dont like to show too much strong emotion.....to exposing. i wonder if that is now many men feel.

Yes it is gendered. I was browbeaten (and sometimes actually hit) as a child into believing that "real boys don't cry"

Took me a long time to be able to show any real emotion as an adult. I had to relearn what it was to be human and also to be humane (if that makes sense).
TheRealTillyMinto I think you may have hit on what a lot on men feel indeed. As I used to be scared of showing feelings.

My father also tried to teach me that when a girl/woman cried they are just attention seeking and guilt tripping you. This was a man who refused to allow himself or myself to cry at a family funeral.

I cant stand the gendered approach to tears, but its there al right.
And it damages us all.

Lurkin - that's awful.

You are absolutely right, it damages us all.

I absolutely hate crying, hate it. But it REALLY bothers me that people can see it as emotional blackmail, guilt-tripping, etc. I mean, how many women can actually cry at will? It's such bullshit.

I've found it really interesting reading this thread as it's not something I've really given much thought to, and now I'm really angry. Tears aren't something you just do - it's a pretty much involuntary physical response to emotion and it's crazy that there's such a mass of stupid cultural expectations surrounding the whole thing.

What's also terrifying is that that idea women cry a a form of emotional blackmail comes from accepting that it is perfectly normal and ok for men routinely to put women in a position where their only option is to produce a convincingly impression of being hurt and upset.

I'm thinking about Prime Minister's Questions - the appalling shouting, whining, braying, thumping, catcalling, huffing etc that gets played out there, but the one thing you will never see people do is cry.

Yes, it's strange isn't it? If those were your six-year-olds behaving the way people do on PMQ you'd be telling them to stop it - it is really bizarrely childish (especially the sniggering, that does drive me nuts). But not crying.