Talking to the dc - suggestions please!

[Hullygully]

So last night dd (13) and ds (14) were about to go out to a school thing.

DD picks up the pair of monster heel shoes she wore once (for her prom nonsense for which I said she could wear whatever she wanted) and I say, "You're not wearing those." And she laughs because of course she isn't going to, she just picks them up for a laugh because she knows what I'll say.

So then I said, look, do you know why women wear high heels and not men? And ds says, because men are taller? (!), and dd says, because they want to. They wear them if they want to, and not if they don't. And before I can say anything else, they are gone (they were late).

The problem is that it has got to the point where when I point things out, or try to talk about stuff, they roll their eyes in a She's Off Again fashion regardless of the content or issue at hand.

I suppose I want to know how I can force them to listen, absorb and understand. Or do you think it kind of goes in anyway? I know that because of the teen/parent r'ship there is a natural adversarialness to whatever I say (altho we do have a good r'ship), am I doing more harm than good by keep saying stuff?? Will it just make them even more dismissive?

I have tried explaining that it's not about women versus men (to ds) it's about human beings and how the world is that I am trying to explain as part of his social education, but they really aren't interested.

It would be easy to stop bothering and let them find out for themselves as the rest of us had to, but it feels lazy and wrong and letting the side down.

Any ideas?

I think it's important to persevere: the eye-rolling is typical teenager-parent stuff, as you say. Imo it doesn't necessarily signify disagreement with what you're saying, or with the values you're passing on: it's more a show of defiance to assert their independence. I know I'm stating the obvious but it gets disheartening to have that continual "yeah, yeah, mum's going off on one again, yawn yawn" response. They grow out of it, and in years to come they'll remember what you've said: all of it.

Lend her a copy of The Beauty Myth...

I think, if you can, find an opportunity where it seems more like a casual chat about gender equality than a lecture (I'm not saying you're lecturing, but if you're starting these discussions when telling her you don't want her wearing something, in teen speak that seems to translate into "oh my god, she's lecturing me again")

Do DD or DS have a tumblr account? If so, it might be worth exploring the feminism tag there. There's the occassional MRA, but on the whole, it's quite a good tag, with lots of varying feminist voices.

Also, Fem Frequency are on Tumblr too and not only thought provoking, but bloody funny with it too.

Thanks. Good point Proles, I will persevere, of course. I do keep leaving books lying casually around, but they aren't being picked up yet! I'll look out those links, humour is definitely the way to go.

Even my casual conversation openings or chats get picked up on as, Yeah yeah we know what you're going to say. Swines, the both of them.

Their friends don't help. Dd's friends are utterly unreconstructed.

I think I wouldn't have listened as a teenager either. You probably can't force them. But at some point they are going to want to talk to you about something to do with gender, aren't they? And they will either remember what you said, or be more receptive to it then.

I don't think you are doing more harm than good. If they are rolling their eyes and so on, they're letting you see their reaction - if they were genuinely angry or upset or worried about what you said, they would not be letting you see the reaction. With my mum, I wouldn't have been rolling my eyes, I'd have known I couldn't show her I didn't want to agree. So there was no channel of communication open for when I did want to ask her things or work out why she thought what she did. They know you're there for them and know they can reject what you're saying without worrying you'll be furious. I think that's a good thing.

lrd - thanks, I want them to go out on the barricades RIGHT NOW

Funnily enough they are dead good on racism and homophobia, point it out, challenge it etc. Why is sexism different I wonder? Is it because if affects their understanding of themselves and their place and choices?

But then, if they are good at racism and homophobia, you've given them all the tools to be good at sexism. I can see why it must be incredibly annoying but it's not your fault... society does make sexism more acceptable.

What would they say if you asked them that question btw? That they challenge racism/homophobia, why not sexism?

I would think it might be because lots of people are a bit insulated to sexism at school - some of the hard facts only hit later (pay gap, etc.), and the rest is so insidious, it is hard to pick up on.

But they'll look back and they will remember what you're doing.

What would they say if you asked them that question btw? That they challenge racism/homophobia, why not sexism?

This... Couldn't agree more with LRD.

It's depressing to see the same old things playing themselves out, dd texted that she would be late the other day and when she came in, said she had been watching the boys play basketball.

DON'T WATCH, PLAY I wanted to scream, but then at least she said it was only because she was keeping her friend company while she waited for her mum

I think they would say that they do and that I just go on about it too much! I'll try and think of a productive way to ask. Maybe not about them directly, could do it as a general question about society or something.

It's tricky isn't it, because as a good mum you protect them from a lot of the sexism that could come their way, but then the flipside is that means sexism perhaps has less direct effect on their lives. Catch-22.

But FFS don't go blaming yourself here! Apart from anything else tis very bad feminism.

Would they take any of this more readily from their dad?

Not blaming myself, just frustrated!

Yes, their dad is v gd, says the right things and perhaps more importantly, they do see us live it: share work, chores, responsibilities etc.

You are right ... nothing beats seeing someone live in an equal way. All those threads about 'my DH's mum did everything for him and now he expects me to ...' you know yours won't be in that situation!

As the mother of two and the step-mother of three who are now all grown-up, I could write the book on 'talking to teenagers'. First and foremost, lighten up. And remember, you can't force opinions on them. They have to form their own. But there's nothing to stop you telling them what your opinions are - and get them talking, in a non-judgemental way, about what their opinions are.

And as for stopping to watch the boys play basketball - erm, well, yes, that's what girls do sometimes. It isn't a crime, and it doesn't mean she won't get in touch with her feminist side in due course. Even feminists can fancy boys you know!

Um...

I could be wrong, but I think hully was trying for suggestions on how to do that 'non-judgmental talking' ...

You could tie it into the Sep Blatter furore about racism that is all in the news at the moment. A quick observation about how how he suggests racist abuse should be laughed off in the same way women are supposed to laugh off sexist abuse may be thought provoking.

Ooh good point Slug. When some idiot racist says black people should laugh off racism, people really get it.

I think humour is a great way in. My DC's are slightly younger than your's HG but I've already started saying things like: "hold on, we can't leave for school yet, I'm not meeting patriarchal beauty standards, I need to put my lipstick on". They eye-roll and laugh at that sort of thing. (I did mention to DD last week that I couldn't go to the Feminista conference with my hair in this state and she told me off for being a Bad Feminist. )

I think that even if they don't believe you now or roll eyes etc, they will still remember and look back and take some very useful ideas from it when they are in early adulthood, so keep persevering!

I remember re-hashing things my mum had said years back when I was about 19-20 and thinking "Oh that makes sooo much sense now" x

I think teenagers are so self-important, reactionary and defensive that its difficult to be direct with them.

It sometimes makes more of an impact if you say something like "darling, you know I really trust your judgement and think the world of you, but in this instant I think you are letting yourself down"... You'll still get the eye rolling, but the need to be admired and valued will penetrate more deeply than a straight-forward lecture..

Just me tuppence (I was a 'problem' teenager - but am yet to go through it myself as a parent - I have it all to look forward to!)

I find it a bit odd the assertion that just because something didn't harm you that it is therefor harmless.

Yes, you can grow up to be a true feminist if you have barbies but you also might not. Barbie reinforces the idea that your body is not good enough. I wonder how many people here who say that barbie hasn't harmed them have felt compelled to diet (and not for genuine health reasons like your fibromialga (sp) is easier to manage when you weigh less) or alter their body in some way or felt they must shave their legs or under arms or do their hair every morning or wear make up to work or wear high heals.

No, barbie may not actively harm girls but she is a tool of the patriarchy to teach girls that looks are important and that a woman should always be judged on her appearance no matter her other accomplishments and that their time and thoughts should be taken up by appearance and striving for a patriarchal beauty construct.

oh ffs this was meant to be on the barbie thread, sorry.