Misogyny

[beatenbyayellowteacup]

What's the definition? What does it actually look like?

I bandy the word around a lot but I think my definition captures more people/situations than some of the other ways I've seen it used.

I think of it as any time a person treats women, as a group, without respect. So for example when a man treats women as sexual playthings (I don't mean where its mutually respectful NSA sex) and has little or no regard for their feelings, I call that misogyny.

Am I too broad in my definition?

My opinion of it, and maybe this differs from a lot of others, is that, in order to be a misogynist you need to have a deep hatred of women, a real lack of respect for equality and these have to shine through in your treatment of and attitudes towards women. I've met plenty, both male and female and their misogyny really was staggering.

I've always meant it as 'seeing women as somehow inferior or lesser'. I do think overuse is harmful though, as it dilutes the word.

PamBeesly can you give an example? I agree that it is hatred of women, and a misogynist can be either a man or a woman.

I've noticed it quite a bit when I started my business, there was what I can only call a disgust that a 25 year woman walked into a bank with a business plan, it was more than dismissive though, like a deep rooted feeling among the (in this instance three male bank executives) advisers that I would invariably fail due to my biological sex. I don't believe a 25 year old male would have been given a similar reception, I'm sure he would have been treated with less contempt and seen as 'ambitious'. In the end my business was success so in their faces. It was like a little boys club.
I was also brought up a catholic yellow and have so many examples of real femal hatred of other females (probably a hatred of themself reflected in other woman when I think about it) regarding sex, clothes, educational aspirations etc. It was rife.

Thanks Pam. Do you think that sexism and misogyny are the same thing? Your example of the business plan ( I see this at work too when males are promoted ahead of me and yet are useless, but hey, they belong to the group that is naturally superior, somehow) is a good one but I'd call this sexism, and maybe also misogyny? Where/how much is the overlap?

Hmm I'm just thinking out loud.

I don't think they are mutually exclusive, for me the hatred towards me for even daring to go for it was palpable, it was misogyny. Of course they were sexist too.

With the women, and the scrutiny when I was younger, a teenager, it was certainly misogyny, but borne from a rigidly patriarchal religion were you dare not mess with the rules of man. Even the practice of 'churching' women was still spoken about when I was a child in the 80's and early 90's. Such deep hatred of the essence of being a woman.

Interesting question.

Misogyny I think is hatred of women. I'm not sure I would describe thinking of women as inferior to men as misogyny exactly, it doesn't have that hatred element to it. Not sure what I would call that really. It's sexism of course, but then sexism is also when people think of women as inherently different (not necessarily inferior) to men, in various non-physical ways.

Something I wonder about is how to characterise an attitude I see a lot of. There are some people who, at a very deep level, strongly believe women are different from and thus inferior to men. If this is 'hatred', it's unconscious hatred. I think sometimes that is the right term - and therefore unconscious misogyny is the right term - for example, when someone becomes twisted up inside because they truly believe they are inferior to men and yet they are working and struggling to do as well as they can, that is a form of self-hatred.

But sometimes I think the indifference or unconsciousness of this feeling that women are inferior is actually something more insidious and damaging that hatred, if that makes sense? Hatred is a strong emotion but it also uses a lot of energy, and I think something parts of the patriarchy have really got down to a T is how to feel and be dismissive of women without needing to expend effort.

Sorry, depressing post - but depressing subject.

Misogyny has to have the hatred element, Just feeling women are inferior is plain old sexism in my book.

Isn't the issue, can you feel convinced a whole gender is inferior, without hatred? IMO, a woman cannot come to that conclusion without having some self-hatred.

You can feel it in a condescending kind of way, without hatred, I think.

Maybe, trills. I'm not sure but then I think it is an interesting question for that reason.

I agree with butterflyeffect.

I don't think all sexism comes from a place of hating women - a lot of the classic, patriarchal head-patting sexism (watch your back with that heavy box, pet) isn't necessarily born out of hatred - although of course some is - just ignorance and a refusal to think and challenge ones own thought systems.

Misogyny does seem to have an element of activism about it, for want of a better word - people choose it and are prepared to devote energy to it.

You can change a sexist's mind, but not a misogynists.

And if you want to know what one looks like, check out the Dorries thread on the board just now,

From my experience with female misogynists they were most likely just playing along to the 'mens rules' and I think men would encourage this behaviour in other women.
I know lots of men who would be proud to say they are sexist (I know, how sad) but I don't know a lot who would admit to being a misogynist. Also agree with butterfly by admitting to misogyny you admit to legitimising hatred. Some people think its ok to hate women, like its a norm and its their benevolence that allows them to 'treat' them with courtesy. Thinking about this is making me angry now.

You could feel that women needed to be cherished and cared for and protected because their brains were not as highly developed as men's and they would become unwell and distressed if they had to deal with complicated things like politics or finances. It's important that we look out for those who are less able to look out for themselves. Much better that they stay at home and take on of the caring tasks to which women's more delicate natures are eminently suited. A woman who wishes to become involved in areas beyond her capabilities should be gently discouraged and if necessary forbidden, as you would treat a child who wished to do something that would be bad for them.

Sexist, but no hatred, only condescension.

I have no idea how someone in this day and age could actually hold those views, but it is possible to be benignly sexist. Not that the actions are benign, but that the intention is benign - the sexist person only wants the best for the women around them (possibly including themselves), they just have a pretty skewed idea of what is "best".

YY to Dorries Wilson now there is an example

They'd have to be fairly blinkered (or just stupid) to actually exist in the UK in the 21st Century. But even if there are none, or the people who seem like that are that are not really, doesn't mean that it's impossible, IYSWIM.

Interesting ideas.

The most common place I find it is in the dating scene (that's probably because I currently work in a female dominated environment that actively encourages equal rights, not to say we/I have it all sorted).

I always seem to find men who like women to be sexy and beautiful and receptive, but don't necessarily appreciate intelligence, drive, strength of will or success - I guess these are coded as masculine traits and so men aren't sexually attracted to these sorts of women. This is what I call misogyny and I meet it a lot.

I can't actually think of a man - in my whole family, friends or work circles - that I know who finds this sort of woman genuinely attractive, who would prefer this sort of woman, without being threatened.

'They'd have to be fairly blinkered (or just stupid) to actually exist in the UK in the 21st Century.'

Or old.
I'm thinking of nice elderly gentlemen who probably accepted intellectually around the time of the Second Wave that women are equal to and not really that different from men, but by that time they were old enough that many of their habits were set in terms of the way they treat women, so they can't help opening doors for you and not saying anything rude in front of the ladies.

Actually, some younger men that went to single sex boarding schools and never met any girls till they were 18 by which time they were already hopelessly confused by them, seem a bit like that too.

Yes, or just very very old.

Oxford English Dictionary definition of misogynist - 'a man who hates women.'

But I always have that word floating around in my head when DH and I are talking to a man (eg the last time I bought a car, or worse, my last gynae appointment) who looks at DH when answering a question from me. We both notice it. Why do they do that??

How awful to encounter it at a gynae appointment wicket