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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fem 11 de-brief thread

94 replies

EleanorRathbone · 13/11/2011 09:19

Grin

Here it is.

The pizza was excellent. The company was great. It was great to meet up with you all. I had a whale of a time. Even though I didn't get to the workshops I wanted to because I was too busy queuing for the loo.

So what came out of it for everyone? We were discussing this a bit afterwards and what I realised, is that many of the regulars here are a lot further along on their feminist "journey" (dreadful X Factor word), than many self-identified feminists. I knew that anyway, but given that it was a feminist conference and there were what seemed to me to be feminism for starters issues coming up there, it made me realise

a) that even on the feminist spectrum, I'm on the radical end (who knew? Grin)

and

b) there is a new generation of feminists just starting on their journey who are motivated enough even at this beginning stage, to go to a feminist conference (I wouldn't have done in my twenties). This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy and optimistic. On one level, it's really great that so many women who really haven't engaged that much with the meaty issues that make you drop your cognitive dissonance and liberate you, are engaging with feminism rather than rejecting it out of hand because they're too invested in their denial to go there. That's actually good news. But I'm a glass half full kind of gal...

OP posts:
AlwaysWild · 13/11/2011 09:35

So wish I had been there!

WoTmania · 13/11/2011 09:43

Same as AlwaysWild.
I'm looking forward to hearing about other people's experiences though.

lelainapierce · 13/11/2011 09:54

Well summed up. I know that for me mn has certainly taken me further on my feminist journey eg i used to think porn was harmless.

What the conference highlighted was a slight divide between older and younger feminists eg over women only spaces/ porn/ rape, violence and abortion being more prominent than 'mothers issues' eg childcare. But, hey still great. I wish it had been the whole weekend, maybe next year.

swallowedAfly · 13/11/2011 10:43

i don't know though, i was surprised by how radical some of the younger women were. there were some women who had done such impressive things at such a young age that i was a bit gob smacked and slightly envious of them growing up in such a vibrant time (certainly seems very vibrant for feminism in london currently even if we are not feeling so much in other areas of the country).

yes i realised that we are at the radical end and it was really nice to hear other women talking that way and to see that we were kind of right where it's going at the minute and to see that it's not us alone who have to deal with the fun feminism stuff or what about the menz from being who are self declared feminists but haven't fully engaged with some stuff yet. maybe that sounds patronising but yes i agree it's a journey and i think for someone young who hasn't been through some of the stuff that life deals as you go through your 20's and 30's it's quite a leap to 'get it' before living it. but some of them did! yay.

may have something more coherent to say later when i'm not so tired still! got home just before 11 in the end and ds still bounced out of bed before 7am Hmm

Onemorning · 13/11/2011 15:34

I'm sorry I missed all the MNers, it would have been great to have met up.

It was my first event, and I had a brilliant time. I found it empowering to be in a room with so many women! I was ,however, frustrated by the elderly gentleman who monopolised so much time of the Question Time segment.

I don't know how far along I am on my feminist journey, a lot of feminism I've engaged with has been on the web (via Kate Harding) and here, rather than IRL. I went to the 'Ditching Dieting' seminar, and found it really rather moving. My niece was mentioned in the second plenary (at 6 she wanted to be 'thin', now at 12 she wants to do a maths degree thank the stars)

I'm going to start getting more involved in feminist activity. I am definitely going to go to the Muff March in December.

EleanorRathbone · 13/11/2011 20:30

Oh lol at the muff march, I really want to go to that

OP posts:
AlwaysWild · 13/11/2011 21:29

Muff march? What's that?

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 13/11/2011 21:56

Right my thoughts on the day as a beginner feminist trying to still articulate her thoughts on feminist matters coherently.

Kat Banyards opening speech, great opening but really needs to cut back on flowery prose and also learn the speech, it looks better than reading it.

Sandi Tosvig, very funny but I found it lacking. I know that isn't very helpful or constructive criticism I just expected more.

Thought the most articulate of the interviewees was the school girl!

The first workshop I wanted to attend was endangered bodies but having attended it for about 15minutes just felt it was more self-help group than wanting to tackle the issues. I was less than impressed at one of the leaders of the group who was rather dismissive of a female who stood up and said she was a runner and viewed food as fuel - that's exactly what it is suppose to be. I was also sad to see on Twitter several people mentioning it was their favourite part of the day when there were so many more issues being discussed.

I moved instead to the workshop in the main hall which was run by Fawcett Society which was less workshop and more lecture, this was fine by me and I found it very informative especially from a beginners point of view. The only part I struggled with is this concept that childcare is expensive (£5ph to look after a child is nothing) and/or the state should provide it.

In the afternoon I attended the lecture (I found the talks in the bigger rooms were more lectures than the workshops advertised) given by Object. I know some commentators out there thought the message was anti-sex, I didn't get that vibe. I have to say before the talk I thought that prostitution etc shouldn't be made illegal as it would drive it underground but I liked the argument that if the punters could find the prostitutes then so could the police and at least if it was made illegal then the police could fight against something. I have to admit I don't know the current laws surrounding the sex industry very well.

Question time, thought the bloke that founded the men anti-porn project surplus to requirements, it's great what he is doing I just didn't think he needed to take up such limited time. I was torn on the old bloke, half of me wanted him to shut up and the other half of me thought it was rude telling him to be quiet! Also found Zoe Williams slightly flippant and again annoying that one of the statements RTed the most was the problem with the govt wasn't lack of women it was because they were tories. Detracts from the issue. Think it might have been useful if pre-conference it was asked if questions could be submitted then no time would have been wasted getting the questions (maybe a lucky dip of questions with them being pulled out by the chair!)

Didn't stay for mayor debate.

I had such a great day, and so much to think about. Not sure what next step is or how to get involved more especially as I am not in London.

Lovely to meet the MNers I did meet.

"What the conference highlighted was a slight divide between older and younger feminists eg over women only spaces/ porn/ rape, violence and abortion being more prominent than 'mothers issues' eg childcare. But, hey still great. I wish it had been the whole weekend, maybe next year."

Interestingly enough I am a mother but identify with the younger feminist issue more, maybe because it wasn't until I had my daughter that the feminist inside me really switched on as I didn't want her growing up thinking a glamour model or reality star was something to aspire to. The issues I find important are the ones facing her rather than me IYSWIM.

Long post, sorry!

Prolesworth · 13/11/2011 23:24

I'm enjoying reading what others thought about the day, so I thought I'd jot my thoughts down too.

First of all, it was bloody great to meet the other MNers who were there. Really that was the highlight of the day for me

I feel I should publicise the fact that a bunch of us LITERALLY told Sandi Toksvig how to find the toilets

But anyway, yeah, Sandi's (yeah, first name terms Wink) speech as part of the opening session was entertaining, as you'd expect, but the stuff about male brains and female brains made me go Confused. But I liked the stuff about the cotton gin having been invented by a woman (but a man got the credit because women weren't allowed to register patents), and the bit at the end about Khutulun, Kublai Khan's niece. I'm continually amazed by the way women have been erased from history, so it was cool that ST highlighted a couple of remarkable women I'd never heard of.

The morning seminar I went to was "'Our strength, our space': the importance of women-only organising" run by Julia Long from LFN. Apart from the fact that the room was too small, so many of us had to sit on the floor and I'm too old and creaky for that shit - my arse felt like it was on fire by the end of it - this was a brilliant workshop. There was one contribution in particular that has stayed with me: a woman who works in mental health services in Liverpool who spoke about how she had set up a women-only group for MH service users, how successful this group had been, and the lack of support from management for it such that she felt they were almost having to run the group in secret. That struck a chord with me and many others in the room, I think; how difficult it has become to create and protect women-only spaces without 'what about teh menz' complaints. Tbh this workshop could easily have gone on all day: it felt like we were scratching the surface really, but the energy in the room was great and - as SaF said upthread - there was a mix of ages there that could have led to some fruitful intergenerational discussion, and brought home to me the importance of intergenerational exchange and activism, which often appears to be dominated by very young women.

After lunch I went to the Object seminar in the big hall. The presentation included some excellent videos of Object's activism and a hilarious BBC News TV interview in which Anna from Object wiped the floor with an appalling bloke in a discussion about lad mags. The list of Object's campaigns and successes was truly impressive: how they've changed the way lapdancing clubs are licenced and the change in the law criminalizing punters who use prostituted women who have been trafficked or coerced (although AFAIK this law hasn't led to any prosecutions yet). When they opened the floor for questions though it became clear that the audience was split with almost half of the audience seeming hostile to Object's position on prostitution (supporting the Nordic model), lap dancing and porn, and those who asked questions like "why shouldn't women be lap dancers if they chooooooose to do it?" got a bit bolshie about the responses from the panel, didn't really listen to the answers and spent the rest of the seminar muttering audibly. I found this slightly surprising because I thought there'd be more division in the room at the women-only organising seminar, and didn't expect such a large contingent of hostile funfems at the Object one.

The feminist question time session was excellent, I thought, especially Bea Campbell who made some interesting points: for example, on the subject of porn, she questioned the sharp divide in attitudes towards pornography depicting children (universally accepted as harmful) and that depicting adult women (rarely accepted as harmful). I found Zoe Williams disappointing and like QoABaM I thought her flippant remark about tories was annoying. She also took a cheap shot at Lynne Featherstone: and yes, OK, LF can rightly be criticised, but it felt completely inappropriate to pick on her in that way at a feminist conference. Regarding the bloke from the anti-porn men project on the panel: I felt a bit hostile towards him a) because we'd already had another bloke from the anti-porn men project on the panel in the opening session (who was crap); and b) why do we need blokes on these panels at all at a feminist conference, as if they don't get enough opportunities to speak the rest of the bloody time. The star of the show for me was Carlene Firmin though. I'd never heard of her before but she kicked arse on that panel: I loved the way she used the word misogyny without apology.

I bunked off after that session thinking that the mayoral hustings would be boring, but from what I heard it was pretty good.

Overall, an excellent day that far exceeded my expectations.

Prolesworth · 13/11/2011 23:42

Some links to the Object videos shown at the seminar:

AnyFucker · 13/11/2011 23:46

< lurks >

< goes green >

HelveticaTheBold · 14/11/2011 00:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

swallowedAfly · 14/11/2011 07:33

i want to come to rtn but not sure how to swing it. a bit shocked that saturday cost me about £80 somehow Confused i'm guessing the cost of wine and cafe rouge didn't help Grin

we'll have to get my mate sandy to pay next time. did i mention i met sandy? we had an intimate encounter in the toilets you know.

there were aspects that were disappointing but here is the thing i think - it made me realise that i have a real hunger and need to talk about these issues with women, particularly women who have expertise or who are on the front line of activism for example, and really get into the nitty gritty of it all. you just can't do that at a large event. the workshops in an ideal world would have been 2 hrs long with 20 people max and we'd have all gotten to talk, ask questions, do group work etc. it was just too big for that. also there are so many issues and within each issue so much depth you can go into that a one day event catering to all will have to be superficial.

so i guess it has given me a bit of a hunger to get more involved in real life stuff though i'm not sure how. do feel a bit jealous of how much is going on in london and wouldn't have a clue where to start in my area in which nothing is vibrant really let alone feminism.

so what do we do? could we organise an event of our own? even if it was only 10 of us? stay somewhere for a weekend, prepare seminars/lectures/activities individually to share with groups when we meet up? have one small action as part of it too? i would love that.

swallowedAfly · 14/11/2011 07:37

actually i'm serious - i'd be willing to do a lot of the organisation. we could do this. i think as a small group we could cover a lot and get real depth from it. we could each pick an area to research and develop a 'workshop' on - effectively a real life thread with a few activities and resources to facilitate it when we tackle it as a group.

would anyone be up for this?

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 14/11/2011 07:57

I would love to be able to say yes SAF but I have so many balls in the air atm, none of which get my full attention, that I wouldn't want to say me to this and then not do it properly IYSWIM. I do intend to try and spend some more time on this topic reading and learning however.

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 14/11/2011 07:58

Also if anyone is on Twitter i am Queenofbiscuits on there, and apparently there is a mumsnet feminism facebook page I would love a link to. Thanks.

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 14/11/2011 08:04

Also if anyone is on Twitter i am Queenofbiscuits on there, and apparently there is a mumsnet feminism facebook page I would love a link to. Thanks.

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 14/11/2011 08:04

Opps sorry double post.

swallowedAfly · 14/11/2011 08:25

i need a twitter lesson. haven't got my head round it yet.

Prolesworth · 14/11/2011 10:26

Yes, I'd be up for that SaF - I think it's a brilliant idea

AlwaysWild · 14/11/2011 12:18

Great idea saf. We could meet at horton women's holiday centre in the dales, which is pretty cheap and accessible by train, and exactly the right kind of environment.

SardineQueen · 14/11/2011 13:33

Hello all Smile

Well it was all lovely. The feMNists were all marvelous and it was fantastic to meet some people whose posts I admire and I always clock when they are on threads and there they were in real life!!!! And were all luvverly.

My highlights of the day:

Sandi was extremely entertaining but unfortunately I fundamentally disagreed with some of what she was saying (mens and womens brains are different and men can read maps and women can look after children) but she was so good that I forgave her. Also obviously I gave her some leeway after becoming a close personal friend of hers after being part of a group who directed her to the toilets (henceforth known as The Toksvig Toilets) Grin

In the morning I tried and failed to get into the abortion talk but it was too full so I went to Object who were informative and good.

Feminist Q&A - shami chakrabati and bea campbell were great. I particularly liked the way that bea campbell wanted to act - suggesting making a statement signed from the conference (I forget about what Blush).

I went to the mayoral hustings as well and really enjoyed it. All of the candidates acquitted themselves well I thought.

Have to do Duplo now am midpost though! Sorry

swallowedAfly · 14/11/2011 14:15

come back post construction and finish SQ Smile

KRITIQ · 14/11/2011 14:23

Yes, and bring a picture of the finished product please! :)

A couple of folks have mentioned that there were some differences or varied perspectives between older and younger participants. Would anyone be able to elaborate on that, if it's not too contentious? Thanks!

swallowedAfly · 14/11/2011 14:25

i'm a bit dubious about that actually. i didn't feel it. apart from a few exceptions (who were marked by their views rather than their age) i felt i had a lot in common with the young feminists speakers and was surprised to find them radical and aware of issues i'd have thought them too young to have encountered.

does sound like others experienced it differently though.