feminism and women in 'extreme'/masculine sports

[maybenow]

I really enjoyed this article: www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4535

Despite the fact she does the whole 'i've never called myself a feminist' line.. it's actually a very thoughtful article which expresses a lot of what i think about the sports i'm involved in (don't know anything about climbing).

i've been getting more and more into the womens mountain biking scene lately - i started of riding with mixed groups and my husband but am now in a womens club and also ride on women's downhill days and freeride days (DH and freeride both traditionally very male and testosterone-driven).

i used to reject 'womens' courses and days as i felt we should just pitch in with the men and not be singled out.. but i can't deny my club is fantastic and the experiences i've had with the women have pushed me harder and faster than those with the mixed group i normally hang with... there's a pressure with other women to try to keep up when with the blokes i just can't..

i'd be really interested in hearing if anybody else here does sports that are traditionally male.

I've enjoyed both single sex and mixed sports groups. I'm not sure I could generalise from them tbh.

What I do like is that my DD does judo, in a mixed group. This means that every week she takes on (and quite often beats) boys as well as girls, many of whom are older and bigger than her.

The confidence this gives her is very powerful, I think.

how old is your DD?
i did judo at uni and we trained mixed-sex, sometimes with weight categories and sometimes without but we only competed in female-only competitions where we sometimes got team awards simply because so few unis had the numbers to put a female team in!

DD is only 9. As you say, training is mixed-sex, competitions are single sex. Fortunately, there are enough other girls to make competitions worthwhile .
Many girls her age don't talk or associate much with boys, which I think is a real pity. DD mucks in with everyone, regardless of gender, although she is very proud that several boys don't want to fight her, because they hate to lose lol!

MY kids and I ride so completely mixed sex! No single sex competitions at all!

I played rugby when I was in my teens.

I also played Lacrosse (not 'traditionally' male but bear with me) at school and loved it but then trained a couple of times with a mixed team at uni and it was rubbish because we weren't allowed to tackle. You just had to hovver your net over their net took all the fun out of it.

i found that article really interesting, and the course content they are advertising even more so. i haven't climbed in years (since way before having kids) and hadn't really thought about it in feminist terms at all. (i mean, i knew i was in a minority... i think i was the only girl in our group - we used to head off at the weekends and camp/ climb, but i hadn't analysed the sport in itself)

so i had a quick google for women's climbing in my town (am lucky enough to live in a very active community, and ds1 goes to a recreational climbing club twice a week where there are actually more girls than boys) and found this - apart form groaning at the titles (chicks with picks, chicks on cracks, women that rock, kick axe, ) i'm fascinated to find that one of the 'girly guides' lives here.

there are gazillions of women mountain bikers too. and x country skiers, and downhill skiers, and all sorts of things. so it's less of a deal here i think. there are women only training sessions and courses offered for everything though - but i suspect that women are fully integrated. the issues of male-centred governance for the sports at the outset is interesting though.

i know that wasn't what you asked. i used to sail too. several times i've been the only woman on a crew during a race series. i've never looked at it from a fem pov though i'm usually too cross at being hit on, or because i've spent 5 hours playing the spinnaker and missed lunch, and no bastard will sub for me. no-one ever hit on me during sport though. always in the bar afterwards. hmm.

am fascinated by this seemingly totally engrained idea of girls only climbing with their boyfriends though. am going to have to look into that.

What an interesting article, thanks for the link. I kitesurf, so I can relate. At my home spot, of the 50 or so regulars, I am one of two women (the other one is a pro so hardly counts!). There are lots of girls-only kite events popping up everywhere on the notion that girls find it easier to get into the sport and learn in the company of other girls. I've never thought about it that way (I just ride with my friends regardless of gender), but why not? I like going out in raging storm winds but I also like talking about hair and make up. It's awsome if I can do both

dont know if it can be considered a sport but I've been strength training/body building for 20 odd years.
Am generally the lone female in the 'mens' section of the gym.
My other half also does it but we dont often train together

ooo, that's interesting. coincidentally i was pondering female body building earlier as it came up in a convo about modelling - from a body aesthetics and training pov. (thin line between 'soft' and 'too fat', and 'toned' and 'too muscley' for female lingerie models) female body building seems to be the absolute epitome of eschewing the cultural feminine ideal... sort of gi jane 'suck my dick' territory - but i'm aware you probably see it very differently!

i'd love to hear your pov... what's the rl response to what you do outside of the industry? do you compete?

I think many women lose their nerve for want of a better phrase, for more exciting or dangerous sports. Many lose fitness after children too so it's an even bigger battle for them.
Shame.

I do karate. Frankly there are few sports as masculinised as martial arts. The greater muscle mass and reach (I'm quite short) of most men mean that hand to hand I'm always going to be at an enormous disadvantage.

If I really had to fight for my life, and a genie said, "You can either a) have super martial arts skillz or b) be built like a brick shit house," I'd go for b) every time.

I suffer periodic crises of confidence where I feel I have no place in martial arts - not because the club is unwelcoming ,it's lovely, and in fact has quite a lot of very senior women, but because I can never be really good in absolute terms.

When I'm in a better frame of mind, I feel that it's the journey that matters, rather than how far you get. It's about conquering yourself, whether it's struggling to achieve fitness, or flexibility, or physical strength, or making yourself go to class the day after you've been punched in the face, or made a fool of yourself in some way.

madwoman, no I dont compete, I use the term body building because I train with the aim of extra muscle size and strength, I dont have the appearance of an 'extreme' female bber (it usually requires a little hormonal help for women to become hypermuscular)
My impression is that often men in the gym are not too comfortable with the idea of a women who lifts weights, it's seen as such a quintessentially masculine thing.
I have to admit I quite like a bit of transgression here and there, but mostly I do it for the buzz of intense exercise
(and the thrill of sometime lifting more than the men in the gym)

Onhand..I did a bit of karate, years ago (I was rubbish)
I hear you on the physical disadvantage of being a small woman but you absolutely DO have a place there and I'm so pleased to hear that the club is welcoming & has senior women.
As you say I''m sure it's about so much more than developing fighting skills, all the benefits to your brain mind & body of exercise in general, plus the physical co ordination, balance, body awareness, etc etc

I do weights once a week too, itsalldirtylie. I also love sometimes lifting more than the men (I am naturally quite muscular, not bodybuilder style though). Sometimes they even comment, which I like even more!

he he, if you're a sad git I'm even more of one!
I think strength training has loads of benefits for women, but alot are put off because it seems such a male thing to do and because it is difficult to go into the weights area of the gym when it's so male dominated.
It is our duty to be in there and encourage other women!!

I don't, but my dd (10) has recently taken up football - the local community club started a girls section a couple of years ago, and they already have about 50 girls playing. My dd and her friends absolutely love it - best thing she's ever done by a long shot. It's made me realise that I assumed that my ds would have access to team sports like this (and rugby and cricket etc) but never encouraged dd into doing any of it. Always (wrongly) assumed that she wouldn't have any interest in playing football. Glad to have been proved wrong, and am now quite evangelical about giving girls the same opportunities in sport.

Interesting article, especially about how climbing would be different if it had been created and shaped by women. I used to do some climbing, and one thing I noticed right from the start was how many of the indoor climbing and bouldering routes were difficult/impossible for me, not just due to lack of skill/strength etc but because they were designed for the height of the average man. I met women climbers who said the same thing, and that they 'hated' indoor climbing, at least outdoors Nature hasn't designed things to suit one gender!

I've started doing weight training in the gym recently, can't help noticing how I'm usually the only woman in that section! It doesn't bother me personally (I'm used to male-dominated environments!) but I can see how some women might be put off or feel it's not 'for' them.

I've never heard of women only climbing with their boyfriends . Yes some couples do climb together, but often that's because it's a common interest and in many cases climbing is the way they met in the first place!

I?m a cyclist: cycling is my main form of transport (commuting, shopping, socializing), I spend my holidays cycle touring, I mountain bike, race and failing that I'll be out on my road bike or watching cycling on telly or going to watch it.

Statistically all types of cycling are male dominated in the UK (3 times more men than women cycle). It is an issue recognized by the government and also British Cycling (British governing body for cycling) so much so that earlier this year Sport England (Government Agency) awarded British Cycling £1 million for its National Womens Cycling Network Project. Steps are being taken to encourage more women to cycle such as the Breeze Network and women only sportives.

Personally I?ve never come across any sexist comments as a woman on a bike and riding with men doesn?t deter me or put me off. I recognize that at my level gender isn?t important, what is important in my cycle training, racing and day to day rideing is being with those who are of a similar ability to me whatever their gender. However, I do have quite a few gender related issues:

1 - Fairly regularly I come across men (it?s always men I?ve never had a woman do this to me) overtaking me ? clearly putting a big effort in to get past me which they then can?t keep up. I (and other cyclists I know men and women) only overtake someone if (by looking at them) I?m pretty sure I can stay ahead (it?s embarrassing otherwise!), so I?m pretty dam sure these men who clearly aren?t as fit as me only overtake me because I?m a woman? hence me taking great pleasure in getting one over and showing em that women can be fast, skilled, aggressive riders too by overtaking at an opportune moment (after playing with them for a few miles tiring them out) and then overtaking an leaving them for dead.

2 - Another issue which I find deeply irritating unfair relates to the perception of women in the sport, which I presume is common across other sports. A professional women cyclist (as in full time cycling is her job) will not get paid as much as a male professional. She can top up her earnings through product endorsements (as men also do) but won?t get as much as a professional male cyclist unless she takes her clothes off. I can?t find anything to back this up, but read an article on this about a year ago in Cycling Weekly (magazine aimed mainly at road cyclists).

3 - Which brings me nicely on to another issue I have with this male dominated sport. The very same magazine did a 3 page article/ interview on the partner of Mark Cavendish (best sprinter in the world) who happens to be a glamour model. In all the years I?ve been reading Cycling Weekly I don?t recall a similar article, the magazine tends to focus on training tips, race reports, bike and product reviews that kinda thing. Because I?ve never seen a similar feature on the partner of one of our top professional women cyclists and it was so out of character for the magazine I can only deduce this was another example of sexism in my sport and the perceived value and worth of women in the sport.

4 - I also noticed in last weeks edition an advert for the ?cycle passion? calendar, basically pictures of pro women cyclists in their underwear in evocative poses over bits of bikes. There is no male modeled equivalent to this (men pros in underwear posing evocatively over bits of bike).

5 ? Whilst watching coverage of the Women?s World Road Race Championships in September (held the day before the equivalent men?s race) I was horrified with the commentator. Bearing in mind the women in the race are at the top of their game full time professional cyclists and the best in the world to be competing at this level. The male commentator constantly refered to ?the professional men?s race tomorrow? ?the real cycling tomorrow.? He had real difficulty identifying many of the riders and referring to their strengths and previous achievements (as would be normal when commentating on a men?s race) and did very little commentating on what was actually happening in the race.

I find it so frustrating that for all the recognition there is of a lack of women participating in cycling and the hugely positive steps that are being taken to encourage women to cycle and race that there are so many inequalities and negatives which reinforce the message of objectifying women in society, devaluing women and not equally recognizing equivalent achievements.

This is an interesting article from the guardian (although it doesn?t touch on the kind of sexism I refer to): here

And: here

What a great and very comprehensive post Whiskery!!
Re point 1, oh yes, it's as if men just have to always reinforce the idea that they are superior and cannot be outdone by a women.

re points 4 & 5, it's as if there is a blind spot when it comes to recognising and celebrating physical prowess in women, although things seem a little better in some sports than in others?
The focus so often goes back to her sexual attractiveness, the evaluation of her in terms of how attractive men find her.

Still things can change, the tide is perhaps shifting gradually in the right direction, it may be that a 'tipping point' can be reached.

or am I being hopelessly utopian?

WhiskeryWoman, while not the sporting end of cycling, I nearly gave up hope when the London Cycling Campaign carried an article in their magazine where the (male) writer bemoaned the reason more women didn't cycle was they didn't want to mess up their hairdos.

"Fairly regularly I come across men (it?s always men I?ve never had a woman do this to me) overtaking me ? clearly putting a big effort in to get past me which they then can?t keep up"

I have men do this to me on foot! I think they assume I must be going slowly because I'm female and quite small, but I do actually stride along at quite a brisk pace.

I do love a bit of pedestrian racing!!

Oh gosh yes!! Point 1 is not confined to cycling. I'm forever laughing at the men in the pool who get all het up and splashy in their attempts to overtake me. Yes, I'm fat and don't look like I could go fast or far, but in my youth I played water sports to an international level, so I'm suprisingly nippy in the pool despite the flab.

When did you last wee the Wimbledon Women's final get the same coverage as the men's? And the commentary contains a lot of comment about their outfits. I think the media is uncomfortable with atheletic women's bodies. Apart from the Anna Kornokovia's of this world, for the most part atheletic women have a different shape to models and actresses. All those muscles give the men the heebejeebies.

Oh yes I get overtaken in the pool as well, though to be fair I'm not a particularly fast swimmer. It does seem to be more men who barge past unnecessarily though, I can only once remember a woman overtaking me and she was very quick indeed, I think she hadn't realised she'd got into the slow lane :)

TV coverage of Women's Beach Volley Ball (an olympic sport!!) however is a different matter!!

At least the women who win Wimbledon now get equal prize money to the men who win thanks to Billie Jean King's demands for equal pay.

Urgh, yes Slug, urgh not forgetting our make up may run, we don't wanna get sweaty or not look 'stylish' on the bike!!