"You and your feminism"... I kid you not.

[IHeartKingThistle]

Eek my first feminism thread! Be kind... just wondered what you all thought of this, as clearly I am in a minority of 1 at work...

I teach in an all-female Dept; I'm relatively new. I've voiced mildly feminist views like 'where are the strong female characters in the GCSE syllabus?' a couple of times and got polite 'hmm's or tumbleweed. Last week I said I disliked a poem ('If'), giving a couple of reasons why. One of them was that the last line 'you'll be a man, my son' grated on me (I know, it's a bit of a basic point but it always has annoyed me!). And coupled with the lack of strong female characters on the GCSE syllabus I think there are about a million poems I'd prefer to teach.

Aaaanyway, that's not the main point. When I voiced this concern there were a couple of giggles and one of my colleagues actually said 'You and your feminism!' She expanded on this pearl of wisdom by saying 'aren't we a bit past all that now, we know we're all equal don't we?'

Honestly, it makes me feel slightly desperate that a bunch of women responsible for part of the education of hundreds of teenage girls reacted like that. I feel that our students don't automatically know that we're 'all equal' (at least not if the comments of my Year 11 boys are anything to go by) and that, actually, we're not bloody equal; women are still paid less than men!

Am I getting this really wrong? They're making me feel like I'm a total oddball.

That's horrendous.

I think Kipling had daughters too - I wonder if he wrote any poems for them? Might be interesting to compare and contrast if he did.

No, you are not getting this wrong. You are making some very important points and I feel sad for you and the kids you teach that you are a lone voice in your dept. Unbelievable!

I also balk at 'If', btw. I think we could be friends

His elder daughter (his favourite) died as a child, then John (the only son) was killed in the war -- I always got the impression that his other daughter (the only surviving child) felt very much like the consolation prize, but I'm not sure how much of that is down to having read that she did and how much is down to my projecting onto her what I imagine I'd have felt under the circumstances.

Yay, a feminist friend!

you and your feminism

Not tackling the feminist aspect, but could be interesting to compare and contrast 'If' with 'The Children' which Kipling wrote after the war.

I think If is a great poem. I do remember reading it for the first time and being utterly confused and weirded out at the end, as I was obviously not a Man or ever would be, or his son. But if he wrote it to his son that makes it more understandable.

But I definitely think more female-centred texts should be included into curricula, despite boys protestations that they can't identify with them - of course girls are expected to identify with male characters Your colleague sounds silly and naive, and you're right that it's worrying given their profession.

muttering about it won't help though.

Try to make changes if it's something you believe in.

I remember a slightly misogynist teacher at school who ridiculed typical "female" literature, especially the Bronte sisters and Austen. I was 16 at the time. I was quite a shy girl, bit of a mouse.

I interrupted him and told him he was wrong, and why, and even said his recount of the book was incorrect so I wondered if had actually read it. I remember turning bright red. I remember everyone staring.

We had a discussion about it. We did not agree, but he did respect my opinions. (so it was a good experience in a way).

That was more or less when I knew I was a feminist at heart. There are times when you just have to speak up for what you believe. It may be a small thing.

I think you have to fight lots of little battles, and in your case, you could give some of the classes a feminist point of view to "balance" the syllabus?

Herd that's a sobering read isn't it? Blimey.

I've just remembered the first time I realised there was going to be an ideological gulf between me and the dept. Some idiot left a note on my car saying something like 'crap parking. £20 says you're female'. (For the record, I'd had to park over to one side of the parking space because of someone else's crap parking, who had since moved - I am good at parking!). Anyway, I was fuming. They all thought it was hilarious. I should have seen all this coming...

That's fair Chandon, I'll keep plugging away!

I think 'If' is a bloody good poem actually but you have to read it in its context. It is especially sad and interesting when you look at it in the context of his relationship with his son, as Youngermother1 says. And what a fantastic lesson it could make from a feminist perspective.

IHeartKingThistle - I feel for you. In my old job there were raised eyebrows when I mentioned feminism; there was such a sense of the battles all having been won by now, and now that I have kids I know only too well that they are not, and I wish I'd been more vocal.
You just need to get lots of feminist backup where you can (online or in a RL feminist group if you had time though I can imagine you might not!) to make you feel more confident in what you are saying.

If anyone is in a similar situation and wants to find a local group, UKFeminista has a listing here.

And good for you - I'd love some of my girls to be like that!

Herd - I'd not come across that one before. Very different to some of Kiplings 'popular' poems. Should be more widely known - thanks.

I didn't even know Kipling had daughters - all I'd picked up on was the tragic tale of the son who he'd pulled strings to send to the front.

didn't one die young of illness?
And one ended up living at Wimpole Hall in Cambs (now National Trust - there is Kipling memorabilia there) - presumably she inherited his fortune.

A couple of the stories in Just So Stories feature a very close relationship between a father and daughter, and the little girl is given a creative, even brilliant, role to play. I'm especially thinking of The Crab That Played With The Sea. The series of stories about the father and daughter who invent the alphabet is a bit ambiguous, as a lot of the fun they have is essentially escaping from the girl's mother/man's wife, who has to do all the useful work on her own.

I think (although not entirely confident) that he originally made up the Just So Stories for Josephine (the daughter who died aged six) so that would make sense.

Don't feel put off! Just keep plugging away. The English curriculum is often male dominated, not that some of the texts are not fantastic, but it can be a bit samey. I once taught Pride and Prejudice, not just because I love Austen, but having covered Othello, Of Mice and Men and My Last Duchess I felt we had a rather unhealthy theme of man kills woman!

God that Children poem made me cry. It's full of guilt, isn't it?

I think the idea of analysing it, saying which values still hold true and which are a load of british empire wank, would be a really valuable exercise and also the idea of writing a poem to an imaginary son now, would be good. Also as a follow up, getting the class to write a poem to an imaginary daughter and discussing how many of the qualities and behaviours they imagine for a son, would be good for a daughter? And why? And if there is a massive discrepancy, to discuss that.

I can only say that I'm not surprised when I hear examples of people in RL being stupid.

Those are lovely ideas, thankyou. I have set 4 (low) so a couple of those will really help make the poem accessible and relevant to them.

I feel so much more sane after starting this thread! I am going to make that school a more enlightened place, one class at a time!