"You and your feminism"... I kid you not.

[IHeartKingThistle]

Eek my first feminism thread! Be kind... just wondered what you all thought of this, as clearly I am in a minority of 1 at work...

I teach in an all-female Dept; I'm relatively new. I've voiced mildly feminist views like 'where are the strong female characters in the GCSE syllabus?' a couple of times and got polite 'hmm's or tumbleweed. Last week I said I disliked a poem ('If'), giving a couple of reasons why. One of them was that the last line 'you'll be a man, my son' grated on me (I know, it's a bit of a basic point but it always has annoyed me!). And coupled with the lack of strong female characters on the GCSE syllabus I think there are about a million poems I'd prefer to teach.

Aaaanyway, that's not the main point. When I voiced this concern there were a couple of giggles and one of my colleagues actually said 'You and your feminism!' She expanded on this pearl of wisdom by saying 'aren't we a bit past all that now, we know we're all equal don't we?'

Honestly, it makes me feel slightly desperate that a bunch of women responsible for part of the education of hundreds of teenage girls reacted like that. I feel that our students don't automatically know that we're 'all equal' (at least not if the comments of my Year 11 boys are anything to go by) and that, actually, we're not bloody equal; women are still paid less than men!

Am I getting this really wrong? They're making me feel like I'm a total oddball.

No, you're not an oddball. And no, we're not all equal now no matter how many people say that it is so. Where did this idea come from that because we say it is, then it is? That sounds like 4 year old logic.

Whatever happened to teaching being a hotbed of radical feminism and the cause of anti-male bias in the classroom? Don't tell me it's a myth?

Lots of questions, no answers. That's me all over.

Thank you - I am really beginning to doubt myself working with these people!

My last department were all die-hard feminists, although not in a anti-male bias kind of way! It's been a bit of a change to say the least.

Feminists have been objecting to the last line of "If..." since Kipling's lifetime:
www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2000/apr/29/artsfeatures

But would dropping Marie Stopes' name help your standing with the other teachers?

Ha! Nope.

I hadn't read that before, that's really interesting. A bit sad though that her perfectly valid point about wanting to use it to inspire nurses has been made to look odd because of the other very odd things she said and did.

Hmm....

I think that actually a raised eyebrow and "Really? You hear the things our Year 11 boys come out with and still think we are 'past' feminism?" would have been a pretty good comeback.

Ask them if they watched Young Apprentice this week and saw how 'flower arranging was for girls and getting out there and selling was for boys' and then see how 'equal' we all are. fGS!

And If is a terrible poem.

Op, YANBU. That IF poem pissed me right off when we studied it at school. Always having to learn about the boy-to-man journeys and never the other way round.

You could always subvert it by getting the girls to write their own IF versions - the boys too - about what it means to come of age today. The results could be very interesting.

You're not an oddball!

That poem annoys me too.

It's perhaps childish, but when people come out with 'we know we're all equal' or 'we don't need feminism any more', I'll say 'you're joking I know, but there are people who honestly think that, it makes you wonder if they ever read a newspaper'.

It only works if you want to piss people off while wrong-footing them, though, so probably not best with colleagues.

It's sad they're like that though.

Herd I think I just opened and closed my mouth like a goldfish. That would definitely have worked better!

Definitely going to do that messy! Great idea!

Oh I feel so much better reading these responses! Quick...give me some more comebacks!

Cross-post: messy I love that idea of writing their own versions!

Could you do that?

(I thought the YA was shit too, WF. It had me muttering 'FFS' at the screen quite a lot.)

LRD I'd need nerves of steel to try that one with my Department. It's brilliant though - kudos!

It is sad - and it's so weird because I'm the only part-timer, almost the only one with children. I'm doing the most traditionally 'feminine' thing out of all of us, and I'm the only one who seems to have these opinions. They obviously see themselves as career women - so why scoff at feminists? It makes no sense to me.

Ahh, do you think it's because you have children? I don't, so I don't know - but so many people on here say that having children kick-started their feminism, or made them more determined.

You could just say 'well, you and I may know we're equal but not all children learn that and I want to make sure they know'. That's nicely non-confrontational and if the others are not parents it couldn't be taken as a criticism of their parenting.

It may be that rather than being weird, its because many of your colleagues aren't mothers and are in full-time work that they have the illusion that the battle for equality is won. For them, maybe it is - 'women are still paid less than men' is true statistically, but not to individual women in identical roles any more, and teaching has less of a glass ceiling (don't think its totally gone, but less) than most other professions.

Its the "I'm all right, Jill" attitude.

Ah yes -the classic Goldfish Mouth reaction! I employed that last night when my neighbour said she avoided all female groups because she couldn't stand "bitchy women"! Always good to use when not wishing to jeopardize relationships for dearly held principles. Or when you can't find a quick comeback!

LRD - yes, that's a very good response!

Hmmm... I've been a feminist since the age of 13 so I don't think it's that. Perhaps I'm more vocal these days? I do wonder if they're dismissive of my views though BECAUSE to them they might not chime with my actual life. Which is sad in itself - I can be a wife and a mother and a teacher and a feminist. I'm knackered, but I CAN.

Bloody Kipling.

Sorry x-posted!

Oh, sorry ... I didn't mean to suggest you were a recent feminist. More that, perhaps, if they don't have children, they've not had that experience to prompt them to it/back to it.

Sorry!

No no, I wasn't offended! I was genuinely thinking about it!

Good good. Just thought it was best to clarify!

These are not stupid women though. They must hear the same comments I do from the students. How can they possibly not see it as an issue?

Lots of reasons, IHKT.

They have currency wthin the patriarchy.
They like the status quo.
They don't like to rock the boat.
They have not come up close and personal with discrimination that significantly affects them.
They have a lot to lose by recognising that we are not yet equal.
They are not very curious.
A thousand other things that are beyond me at this time of night.

All true.

You have a very clear way of looking at this, even at this time of night. It's really helpful. My head gets too muddled!

I remember obsessing over 'If' when I was PG. I didn't know for sure whether I was going to have a DS or a DD, and I used to plot obsessively about a naming ceremony, and I wanted to have 'If' because I quite like it apart from the last two lines, and I kept trying to come up with a decent variation that was non-gendered.
I think I thought of one that I was happy with in the end but I have forgotten it now, partly because a) did not have any money for a naming ceremony and b) did in fact have DS rather than a DD.

agree with most of the points, but If was written for his son, not just men in general, so had to be male centred. The really tragic thing is he talked the army into accepting his son to fight in the first world war despite his terrible sight that would have got him excused and he died in his first week out there. Kipling changed the way he viewed life significantly at that point.