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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ryanair are at it again with their strip-off charity calendar

121 replies

MrsStomp · 04/11/2011 10:48

I don't know who has seen this www.ryanair.com/en/calendar but GGGRRRRRRRR - it has really got my goat. I think they've been doing it for a few years now. Here's some more of the coverage: www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3912561/Fly-Ryan-bare.html

The charity Debra are accepting proceeds from the calendar - obviously with being a 'charity calendar' it makes it all 'good fun'.

The first thing you see at the moment when you go onto Ryanair's website is a lot of women (cabin crew!!!) in bra and pants. It is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Here's the link for Ryanair's complaints section frd.ie/complaints/?language=en - well, you never know. Plus Debra's list of contacts in the UK: www.debra.org.uk/contact-debra.html

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 04/11/2011 23:27

I do accept that there is pressure on men to conform to a muscular, youthful stereotype. It's an image that's used to market goods and services to both men and women. However, imho, this image is less pervasive than those depicting women as highly sexualised with unrealistic body proportions (photoshopped much of the time.)

I do see fewer men spending time and money on trying to achieve these "looks" than I do women trying to achieve the hairless, large busted, youthful, long-legged, scantily clothed images portrayed of women though. I also don't think women have the same expectations that real life men should live up to these unrealistic standards. However, I believe many men do expect their girlfriends and wives to at least try and look as "fit" and like the images in marketing as possible.

Also, the message they two types of images send are quite different. The sexualised, objectified images of women underpin the concept of women and femininity as decorative, passive and sexually available to men. The message accompanying images of "buff" males is one of hypermasculinity - aspire to be strong, commanding, powerful and dominant. Even though the image portrayed may be nigh on impossible achieve, it doesn't convey a negative, passive, objectified version of masculinity. That's an important difference I think.

These clever "Men Ups" show just how very different poses and stylising of women and men in marketing are. You can't really compare.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 04/11/2011 23:32

No need to apologise.

I said I wasn't pretending just to clarify my position - should have italicized the 'I' or something.

I do get that you're not doing a 'what about the menz' thing. I just wanted to nudge us towards moving on since it did seem you and ER were talking cross-purposes, since you both admit the issue is far more serious/wide reaching for women than for men.

It's not that I disagree about body image, I just didn't get why men's body image was rrelevant to the OP. I don't think it's automatically irrelevant to any feminist topic though.

I don't want to silence anyone or to pull any kind of 'my feminism is better than yours' crap, so I'm really sorry I did come across as dismissive. I think I'm just tired ... sorry.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 04/11/2011 23:37

I think part of what bothers me here is that at the moment I'm feeling fairly rotten about some body image issues, and about what women get pushed by society to do. I've just had a row with a mate of mine who's furious I won't support a naked calendar like this one. It is just so bloody depressing that all the time there seems to be this pressure to return to a kind of 90s 'post feminist'' stance where we all act as if nothing could be more fun than stripping off and no right-thinking woman wouldn't leap at the chance to objectify men right back. I don't want to. Most women I know don't want to. Men have much more of that freedom from being treated like this.

messyisthenewtidy · 04/11/2011 23:46

Eccles, I'm sorry for calling your post "tiring" then Wink

And of course we care about what happens to men and of course no one wants to see them objectified or made to feel like shit like women are made to....

It's just that sometimes, well quite often, well almost always in fact, any point that any feminist makes about any Bad Thing that affects women negatively is countered with a "yes but men suffer that too" and then we have a whole comparative analysis of who suffers the worst when really all that needs to be done is for said Bad Thing to be knocked on the head and then everyone will be happy.

I will most gladly give up the ability to look at Peter Andre's pecks if it means that I don't have to be clobbered over head with constant T&A. (Actually bad example - I'd probably pay for PA to put a tee shirt on)

LeBOF · 04/11/2011 23:47

Eccles- I hope I haven't sounded dismissive either. I do get frustrated though when threads automatically divert to Bad Stuff Men Get, when the topic wasn't intended to discuss that. I wouldn't mind so much if it was later in the discussion, but it often comes up so quickly that it feels like even in a space supposedly about feminism and women's rights, the conversation set out by the OP is closed down.

To lighten the tone for a moment, perhaps I should link to ? Smile

LRDtheFeministDragon · 04/11/2011 23:51

I agree it is tricky though - I mean, it's not really possible to discuss female gender roles without some reference to male gender roles.

But the experiences men have are never directly comparable to the experiences women have. Doesn't mean they're not comparable with some modification, some qualifiers ... but it sometimes feels as if we spend all our time working out how to compare men's and women's experiences, how to set them in relation to one another. And if we could only get rid of all the misogynistic social structures that make men's and women's experiences different, I'd be so much simpler ... I'd like to work towards that. Smile

messyisthenewtidy · 04/11/2011 23:58

Aw, all this cross apologizing is making me feel warm and fuzzy Smile

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/11/2011 00:01

warm and fuzzy? Shock

How very feminist.

I am more warm and now-able-to-plait-it-all.

Grin
thechairmanmeow · 05/11/2011 08:56

LeBof
that spoof advert is brilliant, and so funny because of the truth behind it.

couple of things i"m not comfortable with though. is this really the fault of men, or patriachy?
advertisers know what makes women go out and but products , playing on insecurities is definatly on limits for them no matter how moraly reprehensable it may be, perhaps women are more self-critical than men? and not all advertisers are male.
both sexes want to attract the opposite sex, if their straight, for women it does depend more on how they look true, and if peacocks were the dominante speceis on this planet maybe all these products would be pressured towards men.
men are busy with other types of pressure, they start beating each other up at school from puberty onwards, trying to establish there position, a position women react to, men are generaly taller/bigger than women physicaly because of the sexual selection of men by women over the milenia.
i'm deslexic , please forgive my spelling.

SinicalSal · 05/11/2011 09:46

But 'men' and 'patriarchy' aren't synonyms.

'Patriarchy' is the system (maaan Wink) that we all live under. Most people, men & women play the game, in that sense it doesn't matter whether an advertiser/politician/CEO is male or female. So a female ad exec is well able to play on the insecurities of women in order to sell her product. Gender is irrelevent here.

But WHY are women so self critical? Is it because of the acres and acres of T&A they've encountered since childhood, plus the message that this is the standard they'll be judged on? Not their skills and talents - sure they're a nice add on, but not the point of women, really. And before you say but I don't expect my wife to look like Kelly Brook, or a bikini'd Ryanair cabin crew member, of course you don't. But looks overwhelmingly attracts male attention, esp when young, and if you believe, even subconsciously, that male attention is what counts and yoiur looks are your worth, you are going to tie yourself up in knots to achieve the ideal. Such a waste of mental energy

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/11/2011 11:40

I agree with sal that you need to differentiate between 'men' and 'the patriarchy'. The patriarchy is a structure which ultimately, doesn't really work well for most men, as well as for women.

I don't think comparing us to peacocks - which essentially boils down to saying 'women and men naturally take on different sexual roles', isn't it? - quite works. MillyR, if she's around, will say this better, but basically, humans aren't a species where men and women are physically hugely distinct (unlike peacocks) from each other. We are attracted to each other, but it seems unlikely we really need to engage in any activity that strong differentiates the genders.

(I think that is right! Sure Milly will correct me if not).

The other argument against this is ... well, this is the 21st century. Most boys don't go through puberty throwing rocks at each other in trials of skill ... we've decided as a society that this is probably a bit crap. We can decide there are things we don't really want to do as social rituals. I'm sure commercializing nearly naked women is a matter of choice, not something poor helpless instict-driven homo sapiens is forced to do.

samandi · 07/11/2011 12:55

Calling the Labour MEP "Dreary Mary" strikes me as incredibly childish and unprofessional. I had to check to make sure I wasn't on a spoof website. Aside from which it doesn't even rhyme.

Vickiw1 · 08/11/2011 08:44

The problem with comparing men going naked against women going naked is context. It's not a problem going naked if it is just a bit of fun for both sexes, but if one sex feels it's their only option in order to get noticed, then there's a coercion there that isn't there for the other sex. Its like the difference between someone choosing to swim with their head underwater and another person having their head held under. Women and girls are not featured in men's media at all unless they are naked. Why is that?

JLK2 · 08/11/2011 10:02

Ryanair are planning to show in-flight porn now.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058851/Ryanair-boss-Michael-OLeary-plans-screen-flight-pornography.html

HelveticaTheBold · 08/11/2011 12:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EleanorRathbone · 09/11/2011 14:50

I presume they don't want female passengers.

Can you imagine sitting there with your cup of tea surrounded by men with boners while watching women being abused on screen?

Nice.

HelveticaTheBold · 09/11/2011 15:28

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SinicalSal · 09/11/2011 15:54

I hesitate to say it ... but one of the comments on the DM article was really very good - it said

'Why don't you get O'Laery to actually pay for advertising instead of giving column inches to every tawdry little publicity stunt he pulls?'

haha - cut to the chase.

violet79 · 11/11/2011 17:50

thechairmanmeow, nakedness is not sexist...but sexualisation of nakedness IS! ..its not the fact that they are naked...its what the image is portraying about the nakedness...and yes i would have a problem with men doing the hyland fling naked...but i think the point here is that we women have to deal with this sort of thing as part of every day life. Not as a one off joke.

laurawriter · 22/03/2012 11:59

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porcamiseria · 22/03/2012 16:08

CUNT CUNT CUNTS

i hate it, and I feel sorry for the air hostesses that have to flog it

I really hope something SHIT happens to Ryanair

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