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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

london hosting miss World and the views on The wright stuff

40 replies

vanfurgston · 04/11/2011 10:43

I m shocked at callers saying its jst entertainment and every girl wants to be a princess so it like living out your dream. The member in the audience saying that "feminists" ,and yes she did use the air commas, are all big fat lesbians who are too ugly to be gawked at by men

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Original poster
vanfurgston · 04/11/2011 10:45

i dnt c her point there is nothing wrong with being a big fat lesbian or a feminist and to say its jealousy Angry

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JuliaScurr · 04/11/2011 12:35

What rubbish! I can't get a boyfriend because I am flat chested and have hairy legs. Nothing to do with being fat.

KRITIQ · 04/11/2011 13:03

Sadly, it shows just how effectively the message that girls-want-to-be-princesses-their-main-purpose-is-to-look-beautiful has got through to mainstream ideas.

It's funny because waaaaaay back in the late 60's and early 70's when feminists first started to demonstrate outside beauty pageants and such, they also got the accusations of jealousy levelled against them. But, bit by bit, I think society in general started to question the message of beauty contests and they became less popular, or at least weren't bigged up in the same way I don't think. But, there seems to have been a resurgence (at least from my observations) of events, competitions, etc. focussing on women's appearance and fitting a narrow ideal of femininity - and this being seen as "acceptable." It's like the clock has gone backwards. I do think it coincides with the whole "princess lifestyle" marketing crap, as well as the mainstreaming of porn and images/behaviours from porn. How utterly depressing.

And, there is an added sinister element. Back at the time of 2nd wave feminism in the 60's and 70's, we either didn't have or it was relatively early days of legislation on gender equality and equal pay. There was still the assumption that women's choices were limited, but that was okay because that was the "natural order" of things.

Now though, we're constantly being sold this idea of "choice." Women are (allegedly) no longer constricted as before and they can choose whatever they want. If women are involved in beauty pageants, stripping, selling sex, whatever, it's because they freely CHOOSE to do that. If they don't occupy top management jobs, or seats in parliament or other positions of power and influence, it's because they CHOOSE not to. Who are feminists to tell other women what they should and shouldn't "choose" to do. No, don't confuse the issue about whether or not these are Hobson's choices or whether women are conditioned towards a narrow path where certain "choices" are pushed to the exclusion of others. No, no, they CHOOSE to do these things, so it's okay then.

And, of course they are aided and abetted by the pseudo scientists who tell us that women make these "choices" because that's just how the female brain works and all the moves towards equality have been wasted because women will still just do what comes "natural."

Aaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

Original poster
vanfurgston · 04/11/2011 14:33

the most vocal person against the pagaents was matthew himself and i think anne diamond was the only feminist in the entire show. the callers and another young woman on the panel were saying that its jst fun and beauty is a small part of it. its called a beauty pageant FFS hw can beauty b a small part of it

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JuliaScurr · 04/11/2011 15:34

yy KRITIQ

BarryKent · 04/11/2011 15:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
vanfurgston · 04/11/2011 17:03

what i dont understand is how these women can say that they are all alright with it. and only one disagreed with the stupidity that is miss world

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noddyholder · 04/11/2011 17:05

I am loathe to post on this as the last time I got riled on a wedding dress thread re 'all girls want to be a princess' I got slaughtered! I think it is sad and backward to keep this shit going

KRITIQ · 04/11/2011 17:11

Noddy, I certainly didn't want to be a princess - either time I got married, ffs. I'm struggling to work out why my SIL seems to want to, but I know she is younger and faces lots of different family and peer/social pressures from what I did.

And, I think it's probably from that that many women nonplussed or seemingly supportive of things like this. Basically, they don't see how they can "beat it" so they "join it." Then, they have to invest alot in convincing themselves and others that they genuinely think it's benign or even a good idea, even when they inwardly feel crap about it.

SardineQueen · 04/11/2011 17:18

Glad I missed this, this morning.

WTF are we doing hosting this competition?

SinicalSal · 04/11/2011 17:27

Great post Krittiq

if I was seven slightly more cynical than my name suggests, I'd take your post one step further. Of course we've come too fr now to openly despise women - there's no such thing as misogyny any more, after all.
But it's a different thing to despise the THINGS associated with them, but not women themselves, dear me no.
So now just coax them all willingly into this rigid pink sparkly box, and then hold the box up for ridicule.

The box, you see. not women! As we know, there's no such thing as sexism any more
argh toddler

KRITIQ · 04/11/2011 17:31

(whispers) . . . and if we believe women CHOOSE those things that we CAN legitimately despise, well, then it's probably okay to despise those women as well, you know, for their despicable "choices."

sozzledchops · 04/11/2011 18:54

I was surprised, the men seemed more against it than the women. The women who phoned in and the one in the audience did sound quite dim. One was trying to justify it being about more than ogling women in bikinis, 'it's more than ogling, it's about glamorous dresses and, and, and makeup and being pretty'. Was very funny.

WallowedInFlies · 04/11/2011 19:33

i think that might be a nail on the head moment. encourage women into ridiculous, infantile 'choices' and then you have the proof that women are ridiculous, infantile creatures who are all about plastic boobs and pink sparkly things.

bleurgh.

Original poster
vanfurgston · 04/11/2011 19:46

the women did say things like its every girls dream and its not objectifying women at all as its about pretty dresses and makeup and hwever hard matthew and anne tried they were resolute in their views that its jst fun and if u have a problem u r jst jealous.

same thing happened wen they asked women if they would feel offended if someone referred to them as a bird or a chick and the majority said no they wudnt b while a lot of the men said that they would consider calling a woman offensive.

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Original poster
vanfurgston · 04/11/2011 19:47

calling a woman a bird or a chick offensive

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EleanorRathbone · 04/11/2011 19:55

Yes another lightbulb moment for me too

AyedaBWells · 04/11/2011 19:57

"every girl's dream" - fuck right off. Patriarchal-proscribed femininity (and masculinity) is just so damaging. And childish, actually. It's about time we (as a society) grew the fuck up. It's all just so limiting.

AyedaBWells · 04/11/2011 19:58

And yes to what WiF said.

Ledditsno · 04/11/2011 20:00

I caught a bit of this, specifically when the crazy bint in the audience started talking about fat hairy lesbians. Utter wank.

EleanorRathbone · 04/11/2011 20:01

The thing is, when I hear infantile nonsense like that, I just want to personally insult people, which I know is unreasonable and ineffective.

But it is thick to dream of being a princess, if you are over the age of 8.

It is just thick.

Isn't it? AIBU

Original poster
vanfurgston · 04/11/2011 20:38

no YANBU Eleanor exactly what anne was trying to say on the show that there are no fairytale princesses and even people like Princess Di and Grace live like normal humans. I dnt knw wen v we will grow up from the stupid notion of being a princess or what v perceive a princess to be like
IMO it wud b very dull if all little girls pursued trying to be princesses

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WallowedInFlies · 04/11/2011 21:08

they don't mean princesses in the real sense though do they? they mean the plastic doll barbie. princessification actually means barbie-fication.

it is infantile. and women sitting around saying i don't mind being called a bird is adolescent posturing of i wanna be the one the boys like. seriously ridiculous.

i think it's ok to view some of these women as childish and stupid because newsflash some people ARE childish and stupid, male and female. should the choices of stupid people really be the determiners of our culture and standards?

please no!

WallowedInFlies · 04/11/2011 21:10

boys grow up wanting to be super heroes (emulating their dolls) girls grow up wanting to be a plastic doll with pointy tits and a waxy clean, no evidence of their sexual maturity, fanjo - like their dolls.

but surely we grow the fuck out of it!?

EleanorRathbone · 04/11/2011 21:13

Yes I think those sort of women are desperate not to be disliked by men.

They don't realise that the sort of men who would dislike them for standing up for their humanity, are exactly the sort of men, who despise them anyway and don't think of them as being really human in the same way men are.

That's the tragedy - the men they're desperately seeking approval from, are the men who are never going to rate them anyway, because they're just women. They are utterly oblivious to that, they are utterly unaware of the pointlessness of trying to curry favour with misogynists.