Disney Princesses/Barbie castle. Should I indulge DD or steer her away?

[Primafacie]

I have always made a conscious effort to get non-gendered toys for DD, 2.8. She loves her workbench, train set, playing pirates etc but she also likes dolls. Unfortunately our childminder has stereotypical views and has encouraged DD's interest in Disney princesses and the like - eg if she plays dressing up the CM will steer her towards snow white, etc whereas I would pick a monkey outfit. DD also loves Peppa Pig who has a bit of a princess obsession, as well as Ben and Holly.

Lately DD has been expressing an interest in getting toys that have a more girly theme. Some of them are a complete piss take tbh. I mean, a Disney princess cash register? Wtf. not sure DD fully understood when I explained princesses don't work at Tesco

Anyways, am I fighting a losing battle here? The princess thing is so pervasive, can I be successful in trying to avoid princess toys and all things pink and sparkly for much longer? Should I draw the line at Barbies stuff? The only thing is I remember how much fun I had playing with Barbies as a kid! I still very much define myself as a feminist. What are the pros and cons of allowing these toys?

Sorry to be rambling. All opinions welcome.

I find it hard to view all this sickly pink stuff as 'magical', to be honest, whoever said that. And I have held out against having too much of it, though of course I give in on occasion so as not to make too much of an issue of it. But I do think steering away from too much of this stuff is important. Not because it's sickly and pink but because the focus of SO MUCH of it is on APPEARANCE. It's all about looking a certain way, looking like a princess, doing your hair, etc, etc. One of the main reasons I loathe this pink culture is because I feel as though it embeds in young girls the sense that their worth is tied to how 'glamorous' they can look. And I know that girls go through this phase, and I know they come out the other side. But I think they come out the other side on a direct trajectory towards obsessing with their appearance and thinking it's more important that they look good than be a good person/work hard at school.

So, yes, I do some gentle steering. But not so much is required, to be honest. DD is open to lots of different stuff, and whilst she does occasionally want to dress as a princess, she also likes dressing as other things too.

Primafacie - have you never thought not wanting your daughter to play with 'girlie' toys to the point of restricting what she plays with, but being quite happy as "She loves her workbench, train set, playing pirates" you could in some way give her a very negative attitude towards being female when she grows up ? Could this not be construed by her at some point that you would have preferred a son to a daughter ?

I thought she said her daughter plays with dolls too. I am quite pleased that my daughter likes 'boy toys' as well as 'girl toys' and less obviously gendered toys. I am not down on the girl toys at all, just glad she enjoys a wide range of stuff.

DD is into hello kitty, peppa pig, that sort of stuff. DH's family have bought her a bit of disney stuff.

I don't mind really, she has her lego and her other stuff. I wouldn't buy her anything that made me feel ill when I looked at it though (barbie castle might come under that heading I imagine!). I would see if I could find a less-pukey-but-still-pink-enough-to-satisfy one and point her at that.

Thing is they are in a situation where they are told it's normal for girls to have/want this stuff (childminder, nursery, family, friends, it's unavoidable). And while the messages of these toys can be very dubious for reasons we all understand, from the POV of a small child, to be the "different" one would be absolutely awful, tribal little things that they are.

So I do her hair pretty when she asks and she wears her hello kitty watch and carefully chooses her dresses and I bite my tongue and let her get on with it!

I'm new to this place so could anyone enlighten me as to the dubious messages these toys are sending out (I'm presuming it's doll's?) and what are the expected effects ?

The front page of this website talks about the messages.

here's an article in the times

If you google "pinkification" there has been quite a lot written about it recently.

Just to be clear, my daughter loves her dolls, kitchen etc too and I have no problem whatsoever with traditional 'girl' toys. But I do have a bit of an issue with the focus on prettiness and materialism, not to mention class divide, that comes with princess role play. I think/hope it is possible for a little girl to be feminine without caring so much what she looks like. I am also not overly fond of the particular shade of calpol pink and sparkles that so many 'girl' toys and clothes come in. In my view it emphasises cuteness and, dare I say it, sexualises girls at a very early age.

I remember reading that 'footballer's wife' is one of the most popular career aspiration for little girls here, and I find that worrying. I am from Canada and I can honestly say that while hockey players are huge stars there, no one cares about their WAGS. I don't care if my daughter wants to be an astronaut or a nurse, but being a celeb because of who you married is not an ambition I want to encourage, and I can't help but wonder if the princess thing feeds into that.

Can I also clarify that I have no hidden desire for a boy, as I have one, and I would have been perfectly happy with two girls. Plenty of people draw the line at certain toys they don't want their boys to play with (eg guns), how is this different? Also I dispute that a workbench is a boy's toy, I do all the DIY in our house!

To be fair to my CM, she isn't constantly or exclusively encouraging sterotypical games, it is just that she enjoys it and allows more of it than I do. I think the point I was trying to make is that no matter what stance we take at home, DD will be exposed to Disney princess stuff outside the home.

That times article is very interesting. I think I might print it off and give it to my mother in law who seems determined to turn my daughter into a fairy.

Sardine, thanks for linking that article, it articulates my unease quite well.

Thanks for the links Sardine Queen.
Read Antonia Senior's article and can't say I'm impressed. I take it the statements have been researched and they're fact ?
Are there any hard based scientific studies around which back the claim that those females who do end up in science and achieve higher were less likely to wear girlie things and play with dolls ? Or anything similar ?
As far as I was aware there are many women in biomedical sciences, medicine and engineering than there used to be. The oil industry employs significantly more females in what were predominantly male roles. All the previous require science exams.
She states in an article written in April 2010 ''Last month, the Royal Society celebrated its 350th anniversary with a celebration of British women?s contribution to science. The panel who chose the historical champions were themselves testament to the female talent working in British science today. Among the women honoured were Caroline Herschel, the astronomer, and Hertha Ayrton, the first woman nominated to be a Fellow of the Royal Society." Females achieving in science.

This I take serious offence to ''Put a gaggle of girls in a nursery and they will copy each other. Throw into the mix the culturally overbearing world of Disney, add a sprinkle of fashion fairy dust, and a roomful of princesses is born. For a vision of what this looks like, visit disney.go.com/princess/#/home. All the Disney princesses are there in a terrifying tableau of simpering, gurning girlishness. Why are all these princesses, the apotheoses of modern girlhood, clasping their hands together in front of them, in an expression of coy submissiveness?"

Has she done a study of nurseries, does she have any children ? It's sweeping generalisations and portrays having appropriate girlie behaviour as somehow being submissive and something to be avoided, or the path to no hope. Next day they could just as easily be outside in dungarees poking sticks at worms.

Regarding the 'Pinkstinks' Campaign - there's an interesting study I found a couple of weeks ago and worth a read if you have time. www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/equal/reports-10/eor10-02.htm#7 'External research on sexualised goods aimed at children'

An interesting fact I found yesterday came out of critique of a study done by the APA on the impact of Western media on girls in Western Fiji (Becker 2004). It was found that there had been a shift in some girls' opinions of their body image but ommitted to mention that westernised sexual TV show Xena Warrior Princess had in fact inspired Fijian girls to question patriarchy and to aspire to interpersonal and economic power.

Wonder what Antonia's take on this would be

thesocietypages.org/sexuality/2009/12/07/pure-fashion-policing/

i quite like 'cinderella ate my daughter'. the basic take is that at this age girls want to confirm with their peer group. so it's the confidence and individuality you should be working to nurture, so that when they move into wanting to be an individual, they have options.

so it's perfectly normal that all 3-5yo girls want to be barbie pinktastic (thanks to the marketers telling them that's what they should be). as long as the cm has options and doesn't steer, you shouldn't force a girl to differ when it's developmentally normal that she needs to fit in.

dd1's first word was barbie thanks to our cm. she's now 12 and wears purple, green and black, jeans, climbs trees and plays ice hockey. pink she ain't. she still does dance, but prefers 'garage tap' to ballet. (wtf garage tap is).

omg! i just youtubed garage tap

Personally I do believe that "pinkification" is damaging to our children in many ways, and interlinked with loads of other stuff, and fundamentally causes problems for both girls and boys.

scarlettsmummy I'm glad you found it interesting - maybe your MIL will lay off a bit!

"so it's perfectly normal that all 3-5yo girls want to be barbie pinktastic (thanks to the marketers telling them that's what they should be). as long as the cm has options and doesn't steer, you shouldn't force a girl to differ when it's developmentally normal that she needs to fit in. "

Exactly.

For me it's a question of balance.It is fine to spend one day being a fairy princess with your friends,and the next day in dungarees poking worms (actually no - no poking worms,worms should be treated nicely...) if that is what is happening.
Someone posted recently that her DD's nursery worker didn't like her DD playing in the mud,it was unfeminine.
I'm not in the least surprised Xena Warrior Princess made girls question the patriarchy,and aspire to power - the key word there is "warrior". Xena spends a lot of time doing seriously cool fighting and good deeds,there are a lot of strong female characters,and very little princessing as Disney would understand it.
What did you mean when you said "appropriate girlie behaviour"?

Xena
Buffy

Nothing wrong with them

Sure there are more...

We are not a colour gendered house yet ds3 (2.10) said that a sign was for girls (it was pink) I asked why, he said it's pink and boys have blue. Now I'm not sure where this comes from, DS1&2 like pink, dd1 is just branching out from pink, but the blue thing is crazy...

i'm well out of the loop on book club the local book shop is lovely but isn't exactly a haven of feminist tomes. she nearly wet herself with excitement when my copy of 'living dolls' arrived. it's just taking about 2 weeks to get them and i never seem to get round to remembering to order until the week before!

DD is six and loves everything pink and princessy. I don't understand this at all, having been a frill-hating doll-avoider myself, but I've never stopped her from playing with 'girl's' toys (although I drew the line at buying her a hoover and an ironing board!).

I think that the CM should not be steering the OP's DD, however, and if there's any element of 'no, that's a boy's toy' going on then a stern word is needed. It does make my heart sink when people needlessly limit themselves because of societal convention/expectation.

On a more optimistic note, at DD's her princess and pirates party she decided to go as a pirate, and earlier this year at Warwick Castle I was quietly chuffed when she selected a knight's helmet and a spiked flail from the gift shop instead of a crown and a wand...:)

oh really? i've been fighting the kindle mania for well over a year but suspect i'll have to succumb at some point. it even came up this weekend as i have, um, a lot of books and dh was threatening to sort e-versions and sell the lot.

i think i was born in about 1826, really.

but it hadn't even occurred to me that would be a fix for book club. gah. you might well have provided the straw that broke the camel's back. dh will be eternally grateful.

i do have frankenstein though (obv as an ex eng lit student ), oo, and mary daly. scary stuff. and, oo, oo, robert jensen

hmm. now you've gone and done it.

oh, you have to get a kindle, madwoman - seriously, they are ace. just htink - all those hospital/paed appts, al that endless waiting around, and you could have your entire library with you, in one tiny thing less than the size of a small paperback.

I love mine.