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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Calling a woman "sir"

30 replies

skrumle · 03/10/2011 18:04

this is totally daft but i've been watching the new season of Castle and in the first episode a new female captain appears. when the (female) lead detective goes in to introduce herself she calls the captain "ma'am" and is told to either call her "captain" or "sir". for the rest of that episode and the next she calls the captain "sir".

it REALLY jarred with me - i think on the basis that sir is gendered and i don't see why a woman would/should choose to be addressed in a way that suggests she is a man. is anyone american, is there a difference in the level of respect that ma'am would get as opposed to sir??

OP posts:

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 18:19

what a load of utter bollocks. i didn't see the episode, obv, but i'd be interested to know what the subtext was - were they portraying the new captain as a bit bonkers? or actually making an attempt to look at gender and power?

fwiw, i got addressed a lot as sir when it was unclear what my gender was, (with the assumption i must be a man becasue of my rank) but it was quickly corrected to ma'am, with no depreciation in the level of respect as an address. and actually, i'd say insisting on being called sir even though you are a woman is reinforcing that stereotype, rather than demolishing gender boundaries...

'ma'am' or 'captain'. not sir. that's just daft.

am fabulously curious to know more though. and in rl i can see that if any of my (female) colleagues had made this leap i would have been desperate to discuss it with them.

might have to find it on the ctv pages and watch it!

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 18:20

MrsSnaplegs · 03/10/2011 18:24

I know of no serving officer in uk armed forces who would settle with being called sir except in error via email.
I have called a fairly senior male army officer ma'am as I thought he was female - hadn't met him and he had a name I wrongly assumed was female

SauvignonBlanche · 03/10/2011 18:26

I had a teacher who preferred to be called "Sir", she went mental if you called her "Miss".

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 18:28

quite, mrs s.
it makes you crazy. (but lol at it happening the other way round )

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 18:29

sb, i'm desperate to know more, now. why? was she a fabulously militant fem? did she ever share, or were you all terrified of her?

SauvignonBlanche · 03/10/2011 18:36

We were certainly terrified of her, she was Mrs B but I think a lot of children lazily call a teacher "Miss (no surname)" as some short of shorthand, she hated it.
She preferred to be called "Mrs B" or "Sir", she was very wacky.She called my sister a harlot! There were few female teachers so she was often called "Sir".

MardyBra · 03/10/2011 18:37

I hate it when people address letters "Dear Sirs". [grrr]

TeiTetua · 03/10/2011 19:16

How bizarre. I remember when Inspector Tennison (played by Helen Mirren) met her underlings on Prime Suspect they tentatively started to call her Ma'am, pronounced like the first syllable in Marmalade, but she quickly told them to call her "Boss", which they seemed to be grateful for.

Some day I'm going to a meeting where I can call the one presiding "Madam Chairman". It'll happen.

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 19:22

aaaaah, i think there a quite a lot who object to 'miiiiiiiiiiissss!'

WishIwereAtTheWiesnProst · 03/10/2011 20:07

Haven't seen the show you are talking about, but am american. I wouldn't say sir was more important than ma'am. Maybe the woman was trying to make a point that her gender didn't matter etc.

WishIwereAtTheWiesnProst · 03/10/2011 20:09

Although actually I find it offensive she would use the male as a default. She should have said call me captain I think. Why make the male Sir the default if you want to ignore you gender?

I wouldn't call a woman a policeman I'd call her a police officer.

iklboo · 03/10/2011 20:19

She was probably saying what the writers had put in the script. Who may or may not have been men.

iklboo · 03/10/2011 20:42

Oops! Pressed send too soon. I meant that it was lazy or bad writing in the show rather than having a dig at the OP

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 20:46

i dunno, iklboo, it sounds like the writers are deliberately setting up the character in a certain way. i'm just curious what it is! whether she's a fem ballbreaker or just loopy. (as a character. dealing in mahoosive stereotypes as castle is wont to do)

i haven't seen it but it does sound deliberately odd.

iklboo · 03/10/2011 21:00

Outing myself as a geek, but female officers (Janeway etc) in Star Trek were called 'Sir' too.

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 21:48

really?

i haven't seen start trek since i was about 11, but have no recollection of that at all! maybe it is a purely niche americano thang then...

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 21:48

madwomanintheattic · 03/10/2011 21:51

on that note, i live reasonably close to Vulcan, AB - mebbe i'll have to pop down at the weekend and discuss gender with the locals.

Original poster

skrumle · 04/10/2011 14:10

she's played by the president's wife from the first few seasons of 24 (sherri palmer?), and is definitely being introduced as a ballbreaker - rules are rules, no sense of humour, used to work for internal affairs, etc

the star trek idea actually made me go google, can't find any evidence that they used to write for that but the lead actor has a sci-fi background and the main writer wrote a "space-based adventure" according to wiki! hmmm...

OP posts:

KirstyJC · 04/10/2011 14:17

Never heard of this, perhaps it was a deliberate attempt to bring about a gender discussion?

I have heard Madam Chairman too, and when I chair a meeting I call myself chairman. Although I also call the postie postman and she is not a man either.

I think I just think of as just the name of the role, not the gender of the person doing it, and that the fact the word contains '-man' is just leftover from when it was first made up.

madwomanintheattic · 04/10/2011 17:09

oo, i saw the follow-up episode last night. how weird. they aren't doing anything with it at all... i was expecting some kind of agenda, but nada. not yet anyway. might have to go and dig up the first one.

lol at some trekkie ending up as a castle writer though. v funny. definitely a different sort of agenda!

iklboo · 04/10/2011 20:12

Live Long & Prosper As A Screenwriter

HengshanRoad · 08/10/2011 01:08

If there's no Ms. option on a drop-down menu, I choose Mr. Because I'm neither a Mrs. nor a Mr., so they are both as wrong as each other.

MarilynApple · 22/05/2014 20:04

As for calling the boss "sir", whether male or female. I like it. I am retired, but I was the boss before that. My gender had nothing to do with my work nor my pay (because I worked for the State of Texas, which has a non gender pay scale by law). Some of my employees called me sir and one of my bosses did. Yes, we were all Trekkies. But that's not the point. The point is gender irrelevancy. This will eventually become the custom, and it should.

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