Why do men in female-dominated jobs (nursing, primary teaching, social work) get into management quicker than women?

[margerykemp]

Surely there should be less of a glass ceiling in these jobs where 90+% of workers are female?

This seems to happen even early on in the career path so I dont think it can just be put down to 'choices' over eg childbearing.

Here is a link to a pdf I found a while ago which discusses issues men face when they go into primary school teaching positions. It has a good bit re. the positive discrimination that helps male primary school teachers move up the ladder more quickly.

maleteachers

I work with people with SN. It's pretty balanced tbh. At the moment I work for a company with about a 60:40 f:m ratio. Out of 2 seniors, one is male. Out of 3 managers, one is male. We have problems on some shifts with the staffing because there arent' enough female workers to assist female residents with personal care.

I can't comment on schools, or elderly care, or nursing because I have no experience!

Oh, and for clarity - the male Senior has been with the company 8 years. The male Manager is newly hired (and highly experienced). At Senior Management level, there are 2 men (catering and H&S) to several women (Operations, Nursing, HR, CEO, erm... can't remember the rest mainly because I haven't met them!)

I am guessing again that a lot of itcomes down to more men working fulltime and not taking any career breaks to have children.

Also not always but sometimes think men are just more assertive, I am a nurse and tbh I can only think of 1 male manager, the rest are all female, even the locality managers - although imo with the female locality managers they have got to where they are by putting their careers before everything else.

Girlie, the male managers I have met have been very confident in their own abilities, not a trait shared by myself or many of my female colleagues!

purple that's my problem too! I know I'm good at my job but I don't really have the confidence to push myself forward in the same fearless way that men in higher positions than me do.

I'm not sure where this comes from though.

I know i'm good at my job because my resident's are pleased to see me come on shift, and because I get good appraisals! However, the lovely company I work for has no vacancies for anything more senior at the moment

I'm also not very good at getting other people to do stuff. I either ask them politely or just do it myself - not a problem most of the men I know have!

When I trained as a nurse one of our lecturers was male (not a biggie in itself), but on chatting found out that he had been qualified less than 5 years. All the other mainly female lecturers had a minimum of 20+ years? experience.

Anyway I was in a bolshie mood one day and asked him out right how he thought that he had got so far so fast and he laughed and said he really didn?t know/understand himself .
He said that basically every time a job opening or a course came up he applied. A senior nurse (E grade) post came up when he was 6 mths qualified and he applied, he said it was for the interview experience, but got the job as he was the only applicant. After been offered the job he asked the other female nurses who had been qualified 12+ months why they didn?t apply. They all said they didn?t feel ready, so he asked why they didn?t apply for the experience. And they couldn?t answer.
He said that every time he got a course or a promotion he KNEW that there were more experienced/qualified female nurses around that never even applied

Sometime we?re our own worst enemy. .

Because people like me don't want to move up because the higher up you go the less flexible working patterns are the more you are expected to take on. Ie on call etc which is harder to fit in with childcare and still typically even in balanced relationships the woman takes the main job of arranging childcare.

every time a job opening or a course came up he applied.

Well I'm going to give this a go

I'm sure self belief is a big part of it. Just an assumption that you're good enough even without anything to back it up will take you a long way. If you think you are management material and exude that then others will believe it too.

Probably because they are more likely to go and ask for promotion or threaten to look elsewhere if they don't get promotion.

Men often tend to be more vocal when it comes to their own abilities and their own self belief when it comes to asking for more moeny or promotions. Men will talk up what they do whereas often women will hope to be recognised for what they do, but they don't say anything to anyone and therefore get overseen.

It happens in almost all professions tbh.

I used to teach a vocational course which was training for a very female-dominated profession (but with the men in the top jobs, of course). We would have about 90% women on the course.
After a few years I noticed that the students who got jobs were the best women, and the men regardless of ability.

(And when I raised this at a staff meeting as an equalities issue that might be worth looking into, I was told by the supposedly-so-supportive-of-equality HoD that it was a non-issue because the last two heads of our department had been women - like that was even relevant )

"Men often tend to be more vocal when it comes to their own abilities and their own self belief when it comes to asking for more moeny or promotions. Men will talk up what they do whereas often women will hope to be recognised for what they do, but they don't say anything to anyone and therefore get overseen. " I think you're right about that, Hula - the sad thing is that 'being confident in your own abilities' or 'talking yourself up' is another trait that is rewarded in men and punished in women, who are seen as 'up themselves' or 'arrogant' - much like the 'assertive' thing for men becomes 'bitchy' for women.

God how depressing.. it all boils down to sexism, doesn't it? All the little avenues - flexible working, having confidence in your abilities, pushing yourself forward, being recognized, heck, even getting work experiences - it all boils down to the thing mentioned upthread, people tend to think that men are just better.

DH teaches middle school and loves it, loves teaching, wouldn't want to be a head.... but has had it mentioned to him. And when he considered training for primary instead of secondary, was told by other primary teachers (some female, some with a grimace) "you definitely should. You'd be a head in ten years, guaranteed."
Which he felt was pretty odd, as at that point, none of them had even seen him teach. He worked out later it was his magically employable penis they were talking about, not his teaching abilities!

hula this "Probably because they are more likely to go and ask for promotion or threaten to look elsewhere if they don't get promotion.

Men often tend to be more vocal when it comes to their own abilities and their own self belief when it comes to asking for more moeny or promotions. Men will talk up what they do whereas often women will hope to be recognised for what they do, but they don't say anything to anyone and therefore get overseen. "

There was a study / studies / report / or something (I can't remember ) which said that when women did behave this way they were seen as pushy and so not advanced.

So there is evidence which backs up blackcurrant's thoughts.

Many women don't do the blowing their own trumpet thing as they (rightly) subconsciously sense that it won't go down very well. I imagine there are a few areas where it works (sales/recruitment/areas like that where that behaviour is a pre-requisite of being good at the job) but in other positions it backfires.

So the idea in the press that women don't get because they don't ask isn't quite true. They don't ask because they subconsciously realise this behaviour will not be rewarded. These sorts of things are due to very deep down ingrained sexism in almost everyone - they are to do with attitudes so fundamental in society that people don't even notice them. So the idea that "oh women don't ask so they don't get" is an easy get-out for everyone to explain away the difficulty women have progressing, and the reason that often they don't go for the jobs.

True Story: When I was doing my PGCE there was a guy who was re-sitting his final placement. He was initially cagey about why he hadn't passed it first time round. Eventually on a night out he admitted that he had turned up (teaching year 2 kids!) pissed and stinking after a night of JD, was sick in the staff toilets and basically couldn't get a sentence out. Luckily his mentor realised how pissed he was before he got up in front of the class, went ballistic and sent him home.

Instead of the uni telling him "you're maybe not the best candidate for this course" they let him re-sit that placement and he was the SECOND person on the bloody course to get a job.

Also for eg I found out I was being paid less than the men and I always knew I was in a very traditional (sexist) industry. So I was always on the back foot. You don't tend to go marching into your boss asking for promotions/cash if you know you are being paid less than the men IYSWIM.

Incidentally I do think that some women need to work on their confidence and approach - I was going to write "You don't tend to go barging into your boss demanding promotions/cash" which betrays my underlying feeling about this behaviour. I know my DH feels very uncomfortable with this sort of thing as well. I think it's a bit of an "English" thing - the side that loathes boasters and sees "bigging yourself up" as squeamish and best left to americans. Even within that though I wonder of the girls receive a firmer conditioning in not behaving like that than the boys.

I am not sure that is always the case. In my social work style profession, certainly in my office, the managers are all women apart from one.

Although the 'big boss' in our office is male, his higher bosses are a mix of male and female and the CO was for a very long time, until she retired recently a female.

I suspect though that often males are more successful as a result of not taking a large break at least once to have a child(ren) and on returning take a back seat due to not being able to fully commit to the hours required to prove themselves. My current female boss of 3 children works full time and returned from maternity leave very early to take the post she has, if she did not do that, she would likely not be a manager now.

Oh, this issue has frustrated me for years. There is no doubt at all that it's sexism.

1. Men are automatically looked at fir career advancement and are taken more seriously from the first day they start working. I have seen young men and women in their first jobs and the men are always automatically listened to and resoected more from the start.

1. Women often are their own worst enemies, sadly. Not just in their own careers but it is a truth that the person bitching about a colleague is more likely to be a woman. We also do not help each other or form alliances the way men do.

1. However, as has been pointed out, we are further disadvantaged because when we do try to act like men, we are seen as aggressive and/or defensive rather than assertive.

All of this happens long before childcare becomes an issue. However, once you reach that point, it gets worse : a woman leave g work early to do something for her children is seen as a slacker. A man doing the same is seen as a committed father. Interestingly I have also noted that the child's event to which the father is attending is assumed to be very important vs just a normal daily event if the mother is off to do it ie the assumption is that even for children, things dad turns up for are the big ones and more deserving of attention.

I've found that it is often a case of employers fearing acusations of sex discrimination - i work in a female dominiated environment, but when recruiting someone in, if a CV comes in from a man he will always be interviewed so they can claim they had a 'diversity short list' (same if CVs come in from certain ethinic minorities which are currently under represented). Being more likely to be called to interview is going to increase your chance of getting the job/promotion. (Because, quite frankly, CVs are often very similar and it's completely arbitary who makes the cut to interview and who doesn't.)

Also, it's less acceptable for men not to apply for promotions, it's seen as far more acceptable for a woman to say "I'm happy with my level of responsibility and wage right now".

Lydia that's very interesting. In my industry no-one would raise an eyebrow to an all-male interview list. It's in the private sector and quite old fashioned.

In the public sector much more attention is paid to diversity, equality etc - and this is the sector where lots of women work - like in your area that is female dominated.

So it's a win-win for men then. They get an interview in the private sector without a second thought because men are the majority, especially as you look up the ladder. And they get an interview in female dominated areas too - as they are usually public sector - and employers want a diverse workforce.

BAH!

Lydia - I wonder if part of why it is unacceptable for men not to apply for promotions is because of the dating/marriage market. A bloke who is 'just' a teacher or a nurse, without ambition to become a senior manager may be not as attractive to many women (..and parents in law..) who are thinking - on sone level - will he be able to support a family?

I've worked for YEARS in female dominated work places and IMO the reason why men get on better is because the women in management favour them. The men working in nursing etc seem to get away with WAYYYYY more with the female bosses than the women ever do, their sickness leave is never questioned (IMO women are terrible at saying things like "well I saw her the other day and she looked fine to me ), their off duty requests get given, their requests for mentorship/supervision are less likely to be put on the long finger....

Its not because they're any better or more motivated or more pushy, they just get given an easier path by their female bosses than their female colleagues

and then there are a few who get sick of being given all the heavy jobs because they are men and apply for any transfers going too

"Lydia - I wonder if part of why it is unacceptable for men not to apply for promotions is because of the dating/marriage market. A bloke who is 'just' a teacher or a nurse, without ambition to become a senior manager may be not as attractive to many women (..and parents in law..) who are thinking - on sone level - will he be able to support a family?"

Only if you live in the 1950s

This thread put into my mind this one and this one.

There are many ancillary issues, but the fundamental question is whether you want a meritocracy (even though it may be flawed/skewed in places in practice) or whether you want pre-qualification based on characteristics over which the individual has no control.