In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

I've been following this thread with interest. And to blow my own trumpet for a second I will just reiterate my suggestion for a banner, in which I tried to accommodate AA complaints heard so far. I'm going to cut and paste.

Or rather will ask Beach to do it for .e if she can. My phone is not cooperating.

Begony, here is an example. I was just about to post this anyway and then I read your post.

There were a few threads in this section called 'Resisting Femininity'. The point of the threads was for like minded individuals to chat about their thoughts and experiences of 'performing' certain beauty practices (shaving their body hair, dying hair, wearing make up, etc). The thread was not a judgement on people who do choose to do these things and the thread was welcoming to everybody regardless of how much or how little they wished to give these practices up. The idea was that everybody do what they were comfortable with and then just chat about it. Seems innocuous enough right?

Nobody was treated as 'not feminist enough' because they decided that they didn't want to stop shaving or wearing make up. This was reiterated at various points throughout the threads.

And yet people still felt the need to come on and disrupt these harmless threads by saying that being unshaven was disgusting and smelly and that it was ridiculous and extreme and bizarre to even discuss this whole 'performing femininity' notion.

Why? Just Why?

In the interest of 'discussion about feminism I guess .

Here it is Catita;

Catitainahatita Thu 22-Sep-11 22:30:24

Beach: I've been following this thread with interest. I like the sticky idea; and, although I haven't seen it done anywhere else on MN, I don't see why we couldn't try it out here.

Since you mentioned the whole thing on the other thread yesterday I have been having a think. I'm not convinced a banner statement of the type in AIBU or Relationships wouldn't be a good idea. I came up with the following:

"This is a section which is used by many feminists. They will discuss your comments from a feminist perspective and criticise any misogyny or anti-women feeling they perceive. "

This avoids the whole FWS for/about feminism debate and also makes it clear that while many posters are feminists some are not. It also tries to explain to the uninitiated that what they perceive to be "normal every day views" might in fact be perceived as misogyny to others. I would also hope that it might also alert the any new feminist that they might expect to find some unfeminist points of view argued.

Obviously the whole banner idea has fallen from favour, but these sentences have taken me so long to come up with I feel I have to share them with you all, less I feel that I have been using my time unproductively.

I don't really like "they will discuss your comments". I'm sure it is accidental, but it doesn tend to suggest that "they" are people other than the "we" who comment here, i.e. that there is some set of posters who define what the topic is and how it should be discussed.

Hmm, yes, it's a bit exam-boardy, that bit. But I'm sure we could reword it.

Why not say "Expect your comments to be discussed from a feminist perspective,and that they may(will?)be criticised if other posters percieve any misogyny or anti women feeling"

What about something like this -

'This is a section which is used by many feminists. Comments are discussed from a feminist perspective and misogyny/anti -women feeling will be challenged.'

i like both of those- how about a blend? So: "This is a section which is used by many feminists. Comments are discussed from a feminist perspective, and any perceived as misogynistic or anti-women may be challenged. Debate is always welcome, but we remind posters of our guidelines and ask for respect and consideration when posting."

How does that sound? I left the 'women-feeling' out because it sounded a bit lewd

Agree about the ' women-feeling ' -

What about 'anti-women sentiment' then?

Sorry, also hope it's not presumptuous of me to crash in on this. I am an interested lurker.

All welcome handsomeharry . Very positive stuff going on here.

Something like that could be good because it would work as a header à la AIBU on all threads.

But isn't it obvious in any case, without a banner saying it. I don't understand what would be achieved, honestly. I've always thought of Mumsnet as a whole as an in-effect feminist space because it is a predominantly female place, with a female ethos, and the capacity and eagerness to validate and support women by constituting a zone in which their experience of the world is the default and it to be celebrated. I honestly don't get how that is going to be improved by a mssion statement like that in one corner of the site. It is gratuitous and detracts from the entrenchment of such values throughout the site -- partly by making some women with entirely legitimate perspectives feel unwelcome to participate in a discussion.

I think events have proved it necessary. AIBU didn't used to need a banner either, because it was assumed people could calmly discuss. Look how that turned out.

I think that part of the argument is that sexism isn't perceived as being as 'wrong' or serious an issue as racism. If people went on a thread here & made a racist remark, there would be a very strong response. Everyday, there are sexist remarks made which people don't even notice.

I live in the US, and people have commented to me that the UK had less of a feminist movement than the US - I have no idea how true that is, or how to measure that. In many ways, small town US is far more 'Stepford' than the UK, BUT I just don't hear comments about 'you throw like a girl' etc. It's just not acceptable to make those kind of off-hand comments.

So, it does seem fair enough to say that sexist comments should be challenged/removed etc. And there's a fine line between genuinely having a different pov, or asking a question to find out more, rather than trying to throw a spanner in the works & upset people. On the screen, it can seem impossible to tell the difference.

But it should go without saying, that on ANY sensitive issue, you wouldn't go charging in with opposing views that could upset people.

Style & Beauty is often referenced on here, as it's a more 'fun' topic, but even there, if someone was asking for style advice & said they felt bad about their body because they'd just had a baby, it would be seen as offensive to say 'well you look fat on your profile page, so just wear something baggy' etc.

Basically, people should just learn a few manners. It seems a bit sad that we even have to say that when discussing topic A, it's rude to charge in and start arguing that topic A shouldn't even exist, you're all wrong etc, whatever the topic is.

I don't think it is obvious cataliesisters.

Calatalie, it would seem that it is not obvious, no.

Female perspective does not equal feminist perspective (although of course it often does).

The point is not to make legitimate posters feel unwelcome. Indeed if the section was a little less of a free for all,, for not quite such legitimate posters, everybody would benefit - new/infrequent posters included.

Thanks Beach. Sorry if the "they" seemed a little too much. I was just refering to the "feminists" of the first sentence. SM made the same point and I didn't really see it. But I do now. The passive "comments will be discussed" does sound less "us and them-y" than my version.

In short, I like BOF's suggestion.

For what my opinion's worth, I do think something like a banner is necessary because it is repeated complaint in the FWS section that a poster feels attacked for posting what they think is an innocous mainstream idea. It is only fair to give people the heads up that a lot of these "innocous" ideas are actually considered misogynous and insulting by many feminsts. In debates of this nature, both sides end up feeling got at: the first for not always getting what exactly is misogynist about their comment and the other for feeling that the first is being gratuiously insulting, given that this is a board which proclaims itself to be called "feminism/women's rights".

Precisely.

Calatalie, I have a slight issue with

"I have a very broad concept of feminism which makes me tend to assume that everyone I know self-ascribes as a feminist."

I disagree on 2 levels: one, it seems to me that relatively few mn-ers (likely representative of women as a whole) self ascribe as feminist, using that word; and two, even those who say they believe in equality, often seem to have all sorts of internalised sexist views that come out (yes, among feminist views from other posters) all over the relationship or aibu topics (for example). I am sorry if it is patronising to imply that people can be sexist without knowing it, and I don't want to be, but I can't see any way around this point. (I have no one in particular in mind just now.)

While "feminism" is unfashionable, it is also toothlessly unfashionable to articulate explicit sexism - you won't hear people saying (often) "I think women aren't as important as men and don't deserve equal consideration." But this is often what the content of what they are recommending amounts to.

So your position of "isn't feminism just common sense? Isn't everyone feminist?" (similar to the position articulated by non "feminist" women who say "of course we are equal") leads to the very problematic implicit syllogism that looks something like this:

Equality between the sexes is common sense and mainstream.
What I have just said is also common sense and mainstream,
Therefore it can't be un- or anti-feminist,

The trouble is, it often is. It often is some kind of internalised sexism,

Having said that, I broadly agree with much of what Calatalie is saying.
although i am less confident that mn as a women's space will necessarily be predominantly a feminist one. but i do find myself wanting to say it "should" be (whatever that means and feels v. dodgy) and I do wonder whether a feminist section works for or against that.

CalatalieSisters - I agree with much of what you're saying, and my only answer to your question of why, would be due to a number of events that have happened on there recently. IMO that means there is a need for clarity.

Catalie: I also agree with a lot of what you are saying; but I think BOF's version of the banner I suggested, is designed not to tell anyone they are unwelcome; because this is not true. But rather to remind/inform them that a number of posters in this section of the board will analyse what they say using feminist arguments: which often includes the observation that they think that such-and-such an idea is misogynist.

The idea is to reduce the possiblity of people being offended unnecessarily by such an observations, by alerting them to the possibility from the off.

I think Vezzie makes a very good point in her posts. Affirming something that might be construed as sexist or misogynist doesn't necessarily mean that the person saying it is a sexist/misogynist. Lots of feminists -myself included- have found out that some of their ideas are in fact quite sexist by discussing issues on and off these boards. It's just that many sexist/misogynist things are so main stream that we have digested them without really thinking about it. It is unfortunate that this argument is sometimes considered patronising ("are you telling me I don't know what I think" etc) when it is not designed to be. We all form our opinions from a wide range of life experiences; and if we live in a patriarchal society we will be educated in its values whether we like it ot not. Feminism tries to challenge much of those values associated with women, feminity etc by pointing out that things that we have always considered "normal" are in fact deeply unfair to women. As a feminist, I am in the business of trying to make others see this, as I think it is the only way that will lead to the end of a society in which being male is normal and being female deviates from the norm.