(Great) Expectations

[MrMan]

Some of you will think, this is a man, so he has no right to post in this section. Others of you will also think I am a troll (perhaps because I am a man). If you think either of these things please ignore this thread. (This might lead to no replies at all, which I'm fine with).

For those who remain, I have a question. I am a fairly normal guy. I have a wife and kids, and a job. According to many posters here I am part of an inescapable network of privilege. I try to treat my DW equally including even division of housework and child care. I try to raise my DDs to believe in themselves and the potential to be whatever they choose. At work I consciously try to make sure that male and female coworkers and subordinates have an equal voice and equal opportunity (and for that matter people of color and all sexual orientation). The question is, what exactly do you think I, as an individual male, should be doing further to promote the equality of women I have contact with?

Don't expect cookies, medals or fawning attention just for not being a rapist or a violent thug. In a feminist discussion, women's voices and opinions are more important than yours. It doesn't mean you can't speak, it just means that you have to wait your turn and if you have nothing interesting to say, you won't be listened to.

BIWI - ? - of course I can see you?

ah - it just looked for a second like everyone had gone to bed! LRD and I pressed the post button around the same time, but prior to that (excepting NSF) there seemed to be a gap. Between Jess posting, and me asking the Q. no-one else had posted, tho' prior to that the posts were fairly regular.

is that ok? no myopea involved!

Phew. Was worried I was posting in that white type again.

and I didn't realise that feminist bingo cards actually existed

I like checking them from time to time. It helps to resist any sloppy thinking that day-to-day living invites.

white type, ha! sorry - it really was an exercise in taste - one bloke 'telling' another bloke how to promote female equality in the FS seemed pretty when there was an absence of other posters.

'twas all.

Pan, thanks for posting. My honest reaction to your messages is that it sounds great but is very theoretical. Sorry but that's how I read it. Perhaps if you can provide some concrete examples I would find it easier to apply?

BIWI, I understand what you are saying. At the same time let me tell you about the last 12 hours. I put our 3 kids to bed while DW went out for a night with friends. I started this thread, then my last post came as DD2 started crying. I spent the next 3 hours comforting her, then DD1 woke up because she wet the bed. After taking care of her, DD2 started again. I think I got a couple hours sleep before I had to get up with all of them, dress them, take care of breakfast and then put them in front of the tv while I cleaned the bathroom which was rank. DW came home sometime in the night and spent the morning sleeping in.

This is fine with me and I am not looking for praise, gold star, etc. I understand it is no more than being a decent person to take my share. However it is a bit hard to come on here and tell me that as a man I am certainly not pulling my weight.

Sorry this post is rushed, I need to get back to DC. Sorry if I phrased anything to offend anyone.

MrMan
Did BIWI tell YOU that as a man, YOU are not pulling your weight in the family?

You know you're doing a lot, that's great. All she said was that it's worth thinking about it from the point of view of who has the responsibility for the organisation of the household. I think that's good advice. It mirrors my own situation where dh is a brilliant person to have around, but he isn't so good at taking responsibility for making domestic decisions ("Shall I put the washing on?" "WHY are you ASKING ME?" type situations) and while the kids were tiny, that represented breaking point for me, so exhausting it was at that particular time. It's an aspect of equality in the home that's often not understood by men. (I can't for the life of me discover why not!)

If it doesn't apply to you, good. But as a piece of information that could potentially be useful when talking to other men, spreading the word about equality, it's not to be discounted. It seems like such a small thing when you compare it to not hitting or belittling or raping women; it isn't small, though.

Who does the thinking that preceeds the doing a family is such a biggie. In a work context, it's called strategy and is the job of the senior managers and is well respected and well rewarded. In a family context, not so much.

MrMan - I don't think BIWI was telling you you weren't pulling your weight - I think she was outlining her and many other's experiences, and wondering if that set of circs. was being replicated.
btw - sounds like you DID have your hands full!

Theoretical? yeah, it all was wasn't it? - It's just I do know that in 'change management', to know exactly why you wish to change something is the font and support of the change. So it isn't a waste of time to spend a stupidly large amount of time thinking about it, even before actually 'doing' anything.

We will come across some stuff in women's rights/equality that may not 'scan' very easily (due to our social conditioning over years) - we just should be prepared for that fact and not hide behind defensiveness.

Aye, I'd never thought of it like that - good point!

Mrman - I was wondering, is there a specific question or situation you could describe that's bothering you in your life? That'd help us be less theoretical and fall back less on our own experiences (though, um, I'm enjoying those aspects of teh thread for my own benefit, so I'm glad you started it).

I agree with LRD, Aye, that was a penny-drop moment for me.
You have put your finger on PRECISELY why I felt so undervalued and taken for granted and overwhelmed at that time.

MrMan - I wasn't trying to tell you anything! I was explaining what the reality of domestic life is from my perspective - to help you to think a little about what you are actually doing. If anything, I should be telling myself to do something!

Fantastic that you have done so much over the last twelve hours for your family, and that you are so considerate of your wife and allowing her to have a lie in.

But the point I was trying to make is that it goes a little deeper than 'stepping up to the mark' when required.

Loving the feminist bingo cards

Great post, Lenin.

Sorry BWIW for misunderstanding your earlier post. I appreciate you were just giving me your perspective, not passing judgement on my situation. If I am honest I think my issue is that I am tired not just from last night but from the last few years. We have 3 small DC and it has been challenging. I have been the primary house and child carer for 18 months, including 6 months when DW was unable to leave her bed so I was caring for her as well. I think this has seriously damaged my sense of humor as well as ability to have a good perspective on these types of questions.

I already hear the response in my head. Boo-fucking hoo. Women do that all the time, for their whole lives, often while getting beaten and raped. And you expect someone to give a shit about your issues? What a fucking joke.

I understand this point and of course it's correct. DW is just as tired as I am, and there are countless others now and in the past who have had things much worse. At the same time I feel that I am giving 110% right now, and when I hear the message that I am in this position of privilege, it makes me feel like I'm not doing enough and should do more. The guilt extends in all kinds of ways. For example, I volunteer one evening a week at a high school in a disadvantaged area as a tutor for struggling students. The whole time I'm there, I feel guilty that I could be at home helping DW with the kids. I rush there and rush back to minimise my away time. At the same time if I didn't go, I would feel guilty for being home with my DC who have a relatively secure future and not helping kids who really need someone to be there for them. Hence the reason for the OP: what more am I supposed to be doing? How do I stop feeling guilty for every decision?

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to give ideas and examples of what to do. I will leave you alone, take your points away to think about, and also check the suggested sources for further reading.

The early years with children are a real bugger, aren't they?! Don't feel guilty as it's a totally negative emotion. Look at the positives of what you're doing. You are doing your best, like all of us are.

And volunteering is an absolutely fab thing to do.

You should also not feel guilty for wanting to do more/know more. It is to be applauded.

But give yourself a break too.

my you are heavily engaged aren't you! I can now see why you wondered about the 'theoretical' stuff, the Socratic self-questioning malarky etc.

I would still think it's relevant, esp. when your life is really busy as yours sounds. Making time to think about your belifs and attitudes is essential for everyone, yet it appears to be valued little at times - because life 'demands' things to be done now, and now and now.

Hey, don't beat yourself up MrMan. I can totally understand why, doing lots of childcare and caring for your wife, you could feel very split between 'shit ... women do these jobs most of the time and they're really hard and unappreciated' and 'oi! I'm doing them right now and it's hard for me, too!'. Makes sense.

IMO, being aware of misogyny and/or feeling you're not the perfect un-sexist person should mean you need to feel guilty all the time. To pick up the racism analogy, to me it's like this: being white and English, I know it's quite possible my ancestors were involved in the slave trade one way or another. I'm aware of that and aware of the inequality and I try to act in the ways people have described on this thread, not using my privilege as a white person. But do I feel guilty about the slave trade on a personal level? No, to be honest, I don't. It's awful it happened. White people as a group did terrible things. But I can feel guilt on their behalf - that'd be fake too.

I dunno if that helps, but hope it made some sense.

Ahem. I am pretty sure I meant 'shouldn't in the first line of that second paragraph! Or is my subconscious trying to guilt-trip me?