(Great) Expectations

[MrMan]

Some of you will think, this is a man, so he has no right to post in this section. Others of you will also think I am a troll (perhaps because I am a man). If you think either of these things please ignore this thread. (This might lead to no replies at all, which I'm fine with).

For those who remain, I have a question. I am a fairly normal guy. I have a wife and kids, and a job. According to many posters here I am part of an inescapable network of privilege. I try to treat my DW equally including even division of housework and child care. I try to raise my DDs to believe in themselves and the potential to be whatever they choose. At work I consciously try to make sure that male and female coworkers and subordinates have an equal voice and equal opportunity (and for that matter people of color and all sexual orientation). The question is, what exactly do you think I, as an individual male, should be doing further to promote the equality of women I have contact with?

I've thought of another important one: don't tell women how to do feminism - eg that they would come across better if they were less angry or extreme, or that they are focusing too much on issue X and they should be looking at issue Y.
This is a trap that men who want to support feminism (including some of whom I am very fond) often fall into - they're so used to being deferred to and being in positions of authority that they don't realise that for once they are not the expert.

Mr Man, I don't know you. I doubt I'll ever meet you. I have no way of knowing whether you are sincere or not. I only have the words you've put on this thread to go by.

You've said that you don't want people who, "think I am a troll," or "are looking for a fight" or "think I am insincere," to contribute to your thread. You are making some pretty big assumptions about what people think and want based on, imho, the fact that they have not given the "positive" answers that you want.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like you want to do a few nice, upbeat things to fly the flag of feminism without having to get to grips with the more unsavoury aspects of male privilege. And, it could be that you are hoping someone is baking cookies tonight.

I don't expect an easy ride when I'm talking with people of colour about racism. Blokes shouldn't expect an easy ride when talking with women about sexism, either. Consider it being cruel to be kind.

OK Kritiq. If someone like me really wants to get to grips with this, how do suggest I do that?

Read back over the posts you've gotten so far and see what you think about them. Specially my oh-so-wise words that will change your life

What Sinical Sal Said!

SS, I am reading every post carefully, and where people have been kind enough to suggest resources I am checking them out. I am going to do my best to take everything with an open (but still critical) mind. I understand the point about superficiality and the idea that this cannot be reduced to a tick-list, however some people have suggested specific actions that I am also following up.

Oh this is interesting.
my tuppence, as a fellow bloke, is that we should take long, detailed look at ourselves and ask exactly 'why' you want to change? And hte answer 'because it's fair' for eg isn't enough. "so, why is it good to be fair?" for example. We really should be that really annoying 3 year old who answers every answer with a 'why? IT should will feel like the unwinding of a satsuma, or the peeling back of onion layers.

If you haven't had a" "aaahhhh! so THAT's Why!" over at least one thing, then I'd think you/we/I are doing something wrong.

need to go and shop - will have a thunk. It's refreshing.

Pan, the "why?" thing is brilliant, Exactly right, and that's what I have found fascinating about many threads in this section, That unpeeling the onion nature of feminism, Probably explains my frustrations here too.

This is a kind of micro thing, MrMan, but it's something that really bugs me in my own domestic life. My husband would argue that he shares the domestic chores. Sometimes he argues that he does more than me .

What he can't understand is that although we might divvy up the tasks - he does the lawn mowing, I do the driving, he does the washing, I do the cooking - the one thing that he really, really doesn't take his fair share of is childcare. And I don't mean the obvious - I mean all the stuff that women seem (IMHO) to take responsibility for the thinking about and planning for.

So - thinking about when the DC's vaccinations/dentist/doctor appointments will be, organising their hair cuts, thinking about their clothes/shoes and when they need new ones, organising all their stuff for school/college/university, liaising with other parents re parties/sleepovers, going to school meetings/parents' evenings, supervising homework, taking time off work when they are sick, sorting out their after shool stuff. The list is endless.

Similarly household stuff. Organising the household finances, being in for the gasman/fitter when appliances need to be repaired, dealing with builders/decorators, taking the car to the garage for its service/MOT.

These are, obviously, examples from my own life. DH and I both work full time. The difference is that I work from home, and my working hours are much less predictable then his, as I run my own business. Nevertheless, when we were first married and had children, I was employed and out of the home at work just like him. But somehow these extra responsibilities became mine.

To some extent, now that I am at home more, I don't mind it - it is a little more practical. But what I really, really resent is the expectation that I should do these things.

So when you say that you share things with your wife, do you really?

yes Aye. Questions!

to answer the OP:

Have you heard of Socratic Questioning? ( quickly, where you talk with someone but only ever ask well-thought out questions based ontheir last response.)To do it to yourself you ask yourself a question and take pretty much the very first thing that come into your head. Listen to it carefully, pick out the most potent part of it, ask yourself "why?", and repeat the process. It takes practice. IT would help here, I think.

When you work stuff out for yourself, you have a better sense of ownership over it, and are more confident in having it tested - you know it intimately and where it came from, rather than someone giving it to you.

I also think that you/we/I have years and years of gender-specific layers of experience to roll back, and it doesn't come naturally. You will be changing the way you think about everything - not just females/women/girls but violence, clothes, media, justice, television, how you address people, what you should be aware of, children, other people's relatinoships as well as your own, jobs etc.

Expect to have to be resilient. And we don't expect fanfares. And don't stop.

One thing you could do is challenge men's objectification of women whenever you see it, e.g. refuse to go into the lapdancing club on a stag night and say why you think it's bad, challenge friends if you see them looking at Page 3, Nuts/Zoo etc. Ask how they would feel if it was their sister/mother/daughter.

Complain about sexist advertising and look out at your local council for the opportunity to object to licences for lap dancing clubs.

Having a man challenging other men's use of the sex industry would be very useful.

I think it is really useful to remember men and women are not just opposites - we are not the otherside of the same coin. We are qualitatively different. An imolication of that is that no-one can use 'parallel arguments'.
It also means that in stuff like Equal Opporunities it means treating everyone differently, NOT the same.

I think we also have to develop awareness of women's right to their anger about stuff. About the right to exercise their choices. That women are very individual ( like blokes) and the use of stereo-typing will just end in a pile of poo.

Watching thread

Another big factor will be the females that you grew up with. Most immediatley in your family.
The whole point of role models is that they provide a means of 'problem-solving' - and families are stuffed with role models. Do you have good female role models that you grew up with, and helped shape your attitudes to women?

BIWI - read your post nodding - so true!

One thing I would say is, both men and women need to stop falling back on stereotypes without thinking about whether or not they're true. Like, 'well, she's just a better cook ... she just has a higher sensitivity to dirt ... he prefers to deal with the car ... he likes his time alone with the DIY'. These things (if true), are preferences. They have to do with our personalities. They're not things we're programmed to do because of having XX or XY chromosomes.

NSF - is anyone else around or am I just going off on one?

ah LRD.

I have been reading but am about to go to bed.

One thing I try to remember if I am talking about ethnicity with someone who is not white is that as a white person, however good my intentions, I am having that conversation at somebody else's expense. Ultimately the negative elements of ethnicity are somebody else's lived experience and the privilege of it is my lived experience. So I need to be very sensitive in what I say and not expect them to do all of the work for me of figuring it all out, which is not to say that a discussion can't be had.

I think the same thing applies to men and gender.

MrMan - I know that what I am saying isn't the 'actions/measures/appications' that you asked for in your OP. But being secure in exactly why we do this will mean we will be more successful in endeavours, it will be easier, more authentic AND it will v. prob. lead on to other changes not directly linked to female equality. (and I hope all of this is okay comnig from a fellow bloke who is himself imperfect.)

Um - I'm here Pan. Or can't you see me?