DD is pink and princessy and cares about hair etc and is only 5

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

So not like me.

I was brought up by progressive parents in the 70s, and got nothing but electronics kits for my birthdays - there was a cartoon I saw once with a little girl opening a chemistry kit and thinking "I would kill for a barbie" - that was me.

So I have not tried to sway in any particular direction. I am going to have to come up with a reasonable answer to "how do I become a princess?" "Mummy when are you going to be a princess?" Erm, never is the answer to both so far...

wrt "Throws like a girl - you wish" t-shirt - I hate those kind of Girl Power slogans when I see them. Today I saw a t-shirt saying "Girls have more fun" and it made me grrrrr.....

'Femininity' could be constructed in totally un-stereotyped, wonderfully varied ways ... and it would still be restrictive and sexist. Girls/women are female because they have girl bits, not because they fit a social construction of what it is to be female ... no matter how varied that social construction is.

'One', if you prefer.

Teaching girls to reject a colour and what it symbolizes would be a problem. I'm explaining why I needed you to differentiate between 'reject' and 'resist' before I could follow. If resistance doesn't involve encouraging a girl to think of pink as something to avoid, that makes sense. But if resistance involves encouraging a girl to reject pink and its symbolism, that is more of an issue, because it shifts the problem from femininity, to pink - pink is not in itself innately feminine, so rejecting it does not entail rejection of femininity, but instead leaves the way clear for another, no less problematic, construction of femininity.

Dittany, I kind of agree with you about the multi-billion pound industries. The Beauty Myth is as spot on now as when it was written. However, it has got me thinking, all this acceptable resistance to pink. It seems to be the easy way to discuss women's roles and not always go to the heart of the issues. It's hard to draw attention to the problems with something without inadvertently perpetuating its importance.

I don't doubt your intentions. But IMO, the way you are looking at pinkness has a problem with it, in that it leaves a loophole open for perpetuating different constructions of femininity, rather than tackling the whole construct and getting rid of it.

It may be a generational thing. I am very aware of how possible, even easy, it is for people to concentrate on symbols and lose focus on the bigger picture - my parents I'm sure did it with me.

dittany, I'm clarifying, because you asked me to, why I didn't initially understand your (rather subtle) distinction between 'resisting' and 'rejecting'. Do you understand?

So - on a practical note

in response to

"Off the top of my head: modelling non-sexist, non-misogynist behaviour is probably the most important one, explaining sexism to a child where/if it's appropriate, and finally accepting that the culture affects everybody including girls, so in the same way that adult women buy into the stereotypes that are foisted on us, girls may do too."

My post earlier up

"I guess we model non sexist non-mysogunist behaviour in that they see a completely equal partnership between DH and i, he currently does the majority of the childcare/cooking as I commute - is that the kind of thing you mean by that?. I will think about appropriately explaining sexism, especially next time the princess conversation comes up, which it will."

I am looking at the practicalities of this as the mother of DD. Advice welcome

The first thing the UK needs to do is to follow Norway's example and ban advertising to children under the age of 12.

Sorry NSF, I should be more practical and I sidetracked.

I thiink joaninha has a good point, too.

Now that is something I can support, Joaninha. I can't stand the insidious advertising of companies like Tesco and Sainsbury's with all their sports equipment and eco-friendly gardening vouchers in schools crap either. I do very much see this pink deluge in terms of the commercialization of childhood; it makes sense for retailers to sell two of everything rather than one, and have everyone buy new rather than second-hand or hand-me-downs for different gender children. And, if you want to see really offensive 'girly' (in the stereotypical sense) advertising, look at the new advert for Nintendo, which apparently girls and women have to have their own games for, such as dressing and grooming their pink pets...Now that I do actively resist, when there are so many computer games which involve thinking, strategy and interesting characters.

Dittany - my parents had no problemwith "the idea that the pink and blue stereotyping representing the stereotyping of girls and boys into masculine and feminine roles had to go"

That did not help me when society and my peers expected something different, and I do still remember that cartoon of a little girl, opening a present to find a chemistry set, and the thought bubbles read "I would kill for a barbie". That was me.

I also had to wear "sensible" shoes to school when I started secondary, and got bullied beyond belief.

You can't change society and the expectations with one little girl, it isn't fair on that little girl (especially if you go to school in a mining town, as I did then)

So above and beyond the theory, how do I manage it?

I know now I was the end product (at that point) of the sexual stereotyping around me.

When you are merely a little child trying to find your way and your identity, it is impossible to beat that.

My parents obviously tried in their own way.

Norma - I do know exactly what you mean.

Practically, I don't know if this makes sense, but something I think is important is not making a child feel singled out for their parents' beliefs. Others may disagree, but it always bothers me.

And to be fair to my parents they also instilled confidence and an outlook that "male" subjects were not male subjects (science and maths and car mechanics!)

My parents would kind of 'subtly' reward me for making the 'right' choice - eg., if I was at the library and chose a 'good' book, they'd be much more inclined to talk to me about it. They just didn't want to discuss girly/pinky/fluffy crap, because to them it was devoid of improving content. But maybe if they'd discussed it with me, I would have come to realizing that without feeling judged? Instead it'd become a kind of taboo subject.

Does that make sense?

I stress, I'm just thinking about this one.