DD is pink and princessy and cares about hair etc and is only 5

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

So not like me.

I was brought up by progressive parents in the 70s, and got nothing but electronics kits for my birthdays - there was a cartoon I saw once with a little girl opening a chemistry kit and thinking "I would kill for a barbie" - that was me.

So I have not tried to sway in any particular direction. I am going to have to come up with a reasonable answer to "how do I become a princess?" "Mummy when are you going to be a princess?" Erm, never is the answer to both so far...

It hasn't happened with the yellow star, partly because it was based on the Satr of David which Jews wore anyway. But is certainly has happened with the Gay pink triangle- that is both a symbol of oppression and of gay rights.

I think that unless something is clearly damaging - restrictive clothing, sexual objectification and so on, it is really hard to separate things that are imposed on from things that are created by a minority group. People transform the culture of their group, wherever it originally came from.

Hmm. I think force in the opposite direction just leads to re-affirming a negative imagine of the same gender stereotype. I can't see how it wouldn't.

For me personally, I find it hard to resist because to me feminism itself has associated itself with the colour pink. I started out as a feminist writing for a magazine called Shocking Pink. So the idea that pink signifies a particular sort of femininity is an odd one to me.

Someone was saying the same sort of thing upthread, weren't they Milly? That some feminist texts use pink in that way. Because it's a symbol, it can be subverted (which I guess is what that title is going for).

Yeah, I think it is difficult because pink only became the colour for girls in the 1940s, but feminism started using pink at least by the 1970s. So for most of the time period that it has culturally been the colour of women, it has had more than one meaning.

The shade of pink is different though for FEminist stuff.....more crimson, powerful pink....which must be the idea.

What's happened then? Plastic? Has that really sealed pink for girls? Mass markets? Mass production?

Milly But most symbols are like that, aren't they? They're not firmly attached to one meaning. Even (especially?) something very old like the Star of David ... it's also a symbol for black magic or evil in anti-semitic cultures, etc. etc.

I don't think it is a different shade. Lots of girls' things are that shade.

Sorry i am still on a trip about symbols on toilet doors.

Surely it would be better if the female has breasts and the male symbol a penis between his legs. Representations of the human form as they should be. Not defining a woman by what she wears....... And she only gets one fucking leg sticking out of the bottom of the skirt!

posie - I can see why someone might choose 'strong' pink as a sign for feminism (as opposed to 'weak' pink for femininity) ... but then, what makes strength so valuable? The fact that, on average, men are stronger than women and that, culturally, this binary has been emphasized in order to discriminate against women. 'Stronger' pink is closer to being male ... and hey presto, we're back to 'women are better when they are more like men'.

I think it is really hard to impose a fixed meaning on a subordinate group. They always find ways of subverting it.

Raven - absolutely! I like the loos in a club I used to go to that use the biology symbols (I don't know what they're called ... the circle/cross/arrow ones).

Milly - yes, that's true (and comforting! ).

I don't think it is just one magazine and I don't think it is just about irony. I think the reason feminism doesn't use pink as much now is because the colour has become more symbolic of gay rights. The pink paper, pink pound, pink parenting and so on. But in some countries feminism is still represented by pink.

Strength is valuable, it doesn't have to be physical. You have to be pretty strong to carry and give birth to a baby.

posie - I agree strength is valuable, but that's not my point. Strength has a symbolic meaning, which is associated very closely with masculinity in our culture.

(My favourite factoid ... in labour, a woman's muscles exert approximately the same force as a tube train door slamming shut!)

LRD - too true! I am going to start taking photos of toilet doors next time i am out clubbing. I am gonna Start a campaign to ban the one legged skirt woman

Go for it Raven!

OK, so in the real world of parenting a little girl, how do you resist or reject the pink? Out of the bunch of clothes that you have been given, bin the pink things (my eco self would rebel)? Reject any choice she makes in the buying of clothes that includes pink (and should that include skirts and dresses)? Reject any choice she makes in the buying of toys/stationary/ etc?

I have to live with the fact that she has grown up in the society in which we live. I will not let her be a one girl crusade in a movement that she has not chosen and does not understand. I had a tiny hint of that when I was growing up and was punished by my peers for it, without fully understanding why I was in the position I was in, but desperately not wanting to complain or let my parents down.

The only option I have is to make sure that the pink choices are balanced out with the influence and the environment that she is brought up in. She sees DH and I in complete partnership etc. I instill in her the confidence in (and importance of) her own abilities in many areas whether they be traditionally considered masculine of femanine.

I will gently challenge the princess bit, where appropriate. Once she is more mature I can also talk to her about why different things are valued and why. I hope to read up on more given the 2 book recomendations that I have been given.

She has a tree climbing, swinging from trapeze/cargo net fearless thing going on too, and I would just like to reassure everyone that she is allowed to do that whether she wrecks her clothes or not, and no matter how dirty she becomes in the process.

I will try to upload photos of my Jane (or Tarzan) playground at some point.

I really appreciate the comments from other mums of girls who are going through the same thing or who have come out the other side. It really helps :)