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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DD is pink and princessy and cares about hair etc and is only 5

404 replies

NormaStanleyFletcher · 30/08/2011 21:04

So not like me.

I was brought up by progressive parents in the 70s, and got nothing but electronics kits for my birthdays - there was a cartoon I saw once with a little girl opening a chemistry kit and thinking "I would kill for a barbie" - that was me.

So I have not tried to sway in any particular direction. I am going to have to come up with a reasonable answer to "how do I become a princess?" "Mummy when are you going to be a princess?" Erm, never is the answer to both so far...

OP posts:
MJHASLEFTTHEBUILDING · 01/09/2011 23:45

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dittany · 01/09/2011 23:49

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MumblingRagDoll · 01/09/2011 23:55

My DD is 7 and from the age of 4 up until recently she was like yours...it WAS some old bullshit from school. Now she's getting her own mind...I have never tried to push her in any direction but she's starting to get sportier and also very interested in science.

She also loves designing clothes and sewing. She likes nail polish and geology equally.

She''s like me. I like hair and make up...but I'm also a big fan of many "male" things...don't worry.

dittany · 01/09/2011 23:55

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MumblingRagDoll · 01/09/2011 23:58

Ooh Dittany have you seen my bike thread in AIBU? It's about me realising that boys bikes are better than girls bikes.

My DD is getting a "boys" bike.

She doesn't need some sparkly pink piece of shit...with a carrier for her dolly and a fucking shopping basket.

The manufaturers can piss off. I'm not letting her think that's her role.

She's getting a bike that can stand being ridden for miles on various terrain. One that doesn't have tassles to hinder her progress.

UsingMainlySpoons · 02/09/2011 00:08

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MumblingRagDoll · 02/09/2011 00:34

Don't mens bikes come with adjustable seating and in different sizes though?

dittany · 02/09/2011 00:36

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UsingMainlySpoons · 02/09/2011 00:41

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MJHASLEFTTHEBUILDING · 02/09/2011 00:44

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UsingMainlySpoons · 02/09/2011 00:47

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mathanxiety · 02/09/2011 02:54

'The issue of girls buying into girl culture is that it may limit girl's expectations of what they can do to a set of specific feminine roles and behaviours. Obviously I would rather they thought they can do anything.'

And what about all girls' schools? Or do they sometimes succeed because the families who can afford them tend to be the sort of families whose children succeed academically anyway? The whole point of all-girls' schools, one of their biggest selling points, is that they do not limit girls academically and that the boy-free environment contributes to a more supportive and encouraging atmosphere.

'Math, you've seen one baby boy in pink. It hardly makes for an unsexist unstereotyped world does it'. I've seen one baby who I knew was a boy in pink. I've seen lots of babies in pink but I hesitate to believe they were all girls because of my experience with DS, who was mistaken for a girl until he was about 6 no matter what he wore. (He had soft pudgy cheeks, floppy brown hair, huge blue eyes and extra long lashes, which he batted shamelessly at anyone who paid him the slightest interest.) Apparently you can fool all of the people all of the time. I don't know what it was about his manner that made little old ladies mistake him for a girl.

Admittedly, I live in a very right on sort of place though, where it's never safe to assume anything.

'Every little girl I've seen on a bike in the park is on a pink one. Often with bizarre tassly sparkly pom pom things coming off them. Same with cycle helmets - bright pink. The boys on the other hand are on something non-descript but they still seem to having a good time riding a bike. Becuase it's the cycling that's important, not the pinkness. '
Are you assuming the girls are not having a good time on their bikes? Do tassels really cause so much wind resistance that they spoil the fun of biking? Reading this, you seem to imply that the boys are the only ones having fun on their bikes.

How about this sentence:

'Every little boy I've seen on a bike in the park is on a non-descript one. Often with bizarre superhero logos painted onto the crossbar and on the handlebars. Same with cycle helmets - non-descript. The girls on the other hand are on something pink but they seem to be having a good time riding a bike. Because it's the cycling that's important, not the non-descriptness'

My DDs rode miles every day on their pink bikes, which they adored even when the tassels fell off. The baskets were handy for all kinds of stuff that was important to them. They thought they were the coolest things ever and their bikes the best. Girls can enjoy riding their pink bikes. If anyone had told them there was something inherently flawed about their bikes they would have thumped them.

TheRealMBJ · 02/09/2011 05:57

Single sex schools are not about creating a 'girl-culture' though, it is about education and growing up away from the male gaze.

My experience if my single sex education was certainly that it was the place where There was the least expectation if exaggerated femininity. We just got on with being ourselves and I never encountered an attitude of girls can't do this or that or girls should do this/that.*

*Disclaimer: personal experience only. Grin

ThePosieParker · 02/09/2011 07:24

So what do I do dd is five on Tuesday, she wants a bike. I'm getting her a pink one [ducks] but not sparkly, not branded. DS wanted a red one and got a red one.....in fact he wants a BMX (which he's buying himself) and would rather pay and extra £20 for a red one than get a gold.

ThePosieParker · 02/09/2011 07:25

UMS.....gosh yes about the hard wearing.

pommedechocolat · 02/09/2011 08:34

TheRealMBJ - That was my experience of single sex education as well. I truely never felt limited in any way in my choices. This stood me in good stead post uni when I went to work in a very 'male' field in one of the most chauvanistic parts of Europe. Looking back now I must have encountered sexism but I never even noticed it and hence got everyone on board with me just from doing a great job.

I hope to send my dd and my second child to single sex private schools as imho it was the best thing my parents ever did for me.

Their were some eating disorder issues but I still think that was down more to competitiveness than 'female expectations' in that arena.

Funtimewincies · 02/09/2011 08:49

Ds1 (aged 4) and I had a conversation yesterday which started with 'girls like pink, don't they mummy'. We've had a lot of 'that's a girl's book' and 'that's a boy's toy' since he started school Hmm.

Me: Not all girls. I don't, I like green better.
Ds1: You're not a girl, you're a lady.
Me: I used to be a girl and didn't really like pink then either.

Ds1: But girls do like pink.
Me: Not all girls though. Just some girls and not all the time. What if I said that all boys like scrambled egg?
Ds1: I don't like it.
Me: Ds2 does. So do all boys like scrambled egg?
Ds1: No.
Me: So do you think that all girls like pink?
Ds1: Erm....

Shame it was breakfast time and too early for gin Grin!

Hardgoing · 02/09/2011 09:38

I think we are wrong if we think the only reason there are girls and boys bikes is to identify girls and mark them out as 'feminine'. It's dreamed up by marketing companies, so that people with families with both girls and boys feel obliged to pay out for both, and boys can't pass on their bikes to younger girls and vice versa. A wonderful money-making strategy. Obviously if we were all brave enough to let our boys ride sparkly pink bikes, it would fail, but it takes a certain kind of a boy to ride through that kind of social stigma (literally!)

One way of marking out girls in other countries who don't have the colour thing is to pierce their ears. I found my MIL on her way out to do just that with my four month old (before I screamed 'no, stop', obviously).

LRDTheFeministDragon · 02/09/2011 10:47

dittany, I'm not trying to misrepresent you. All I'm saying is, if you take credit to yourself for paraphrasing my argument and checking what I meant because that's a good way to discuss things, it's only fair not to respond when I do the same by calling it 'misrepresentation' and refusing to clarify.

I did find your argument very hard to follow and, if I understand it correctly, s I have tried my best to do, I can't agree with it. As I have said, I am sure of your intentions and I know what you are urging has benefits in day-to-day life. It's just my view that it is not a real solution. I may be wrong. That's the way it goes. But I have not being anything but honest in putting my point forward and trying to engage with and explain why I disagree with yours.

It's not on to respond to an argument by making fun of me and saying you find it 'entertaining' to be 'lectured' by me. Every thread ought to start fresh and you shouldn't assume I will always be the person who is a learner and could not possibly be right. For the same reason, I'd prefer it if you wouldn't drag up your grudges from old threads. There was no need. If you engage with what I'm saying without automatically assuming it's wrong and your position could not possibly be misunderstood or incorrect, no wonder I will sometimes disagree.

dittany · 02/09/2011 10:56

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dittany · 02/09/2011 11:00

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 02/09/2011 11:03

I don't think we shouldn't address specific manifestations or symbols of gender, either. That's why I keep saying I can see why it has importance. I'm just trying to think about the ramifications of how you reacted to a world full of symbols of gender, and IMO, if I understand you rightly, I wouldn't do it by 'resisting' pink.

It's only disagreement. It may be totally wrong. I'm sorry if other people on this thread are also thinking 'daft woman, what's she on about' - you may be! Grin But it seems pretty clear to me and there's no reason why I shouldn't say so, and try to explain it to you. I'm not going to 'just stop it' - I have as much right to post here as you do.

dittany · 02/09/2011 11:12

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ThePosieParker · 02/09/2011 13:33

Why oh why have girls bikes got WHITE tyres?

dittany · 02/09/2011 13:39

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