DD is pink and princessy and cares about hair etc and is only 5

[NormaStanleyFletcher]

So not like me.

I was brought up by progressive parents in the 70s, and got nothing but electronics kits for my birthdays - there was a cartoon I saw once with a little girl opening a chemistry kit and thinking "I would kill for a barbie" - that was me.

So I have not tried to sway in any particular direction. I am going to have to come up with a reasonable answer to "how do I become a princess?" "Mummy when are you going to be a princess?" Erm, never is the answer to both so far...

LRD - i do not want nothing but practical advice on this thread - so much has been contributed that was not practical as such, but has been interesting and worthwhile and thought provoking,

I just wanted practical advice too

Oh, good. I just thought I'd check as I have a really bad habit of wandering miles from the OP!

Have to say my children assume a doctor is female, I'm sure most of the doctors at the practice are male but friends that are drs are female.

My babies were pink/blue ish though and that's because I wanted people to know whether they were boys or girls.

Note to self: befriend female doctors.

I did know a female powerstation engineer when I was little though - she used to crawl about supervising welding with my dad until she wouldn't fit into the station because she was so heavily pregnant! She was a good role model I think.

Norma, I would say to try not to mention appearance at all to little children (theirs or others'), focus on their activities, and concentrate on emotional intelligence development. It makes me cringe to hear children complimented on their appearance, whether boys or girls. They don't care at all how they look.

I would also try to look out for and make a comment on any remarks that are make about the appearance of others -- for instance in certain newspapers and magazines, and try to point out to them the value judgements that are behind such remarks (which are mostly made about women). This can be done from around age 7 or 8. You don't have to preach a long sermon, just point out that it isn't fair. As time rolls on you can have longer conversations with them about the values that they find in magazines, films and TV, without getting all preachy and angry. It's a positive thing to have their thoughts sought out on matters of substance.

I tell all of my children they're beautiful, but lots of other things more.

dittany, I think she wasn't talking to you, just carrying on the thread? Otherwise I am very confused.

MJ - that's really sad ... and a bit silly of them to react like that! I find it bizarre since until puberty you can't really tell the difference between boys and girls by looking at faces/bodies ... only by clothes. I accept it's quite normal to want to know if a baby is a boy or a girl, because it's a big category for us ... but to insist that femaleness or maleness must always be visually signposted is totally unnecessary, especially at that age. Why would an adult need to see a girl or a boy dressed in such a way as to indicate their sex, unless that adult intended to treat them differently?

Oh ... I think quite a lot of people have talked about whether or not parents should stop dressing children in colour-coded clothes.

I think it would be a bad idea to stop dressing children in pink or blue - unless by 'we' you mean 'the whole world'. If that happened, children would still conclude pink/blue had some kind of strong social meaning, but I imagine they'd think it had to do with adulthood, not gender. If by 'we' you mean feminists, I don't think it would work. Children would simply assume that the colours did indeed hold some kind of social meaning. Their gender identities would be constructed in response to that, even if negatively.

I mean ... I see the appeal. But I think it would be like that stereotype of 70s feminist mums insisting to girls 'no, dear, you don't want to be a nurse - you want to be a doctor!', and the reverse to boys It may help balance the existing value structure a bit, if girls end up as well-paid doctors and get some of the privileges of a traditionally 'male' job while boys end up as nurses ... but it doesn't solve the problem that nursing is still seen as 'feminine' and considered less prestigious.

The solution would be - if we can - to show children that gendered ideas of self are not necessary or helpful. They are female if they have female biology; that's it.

No, I'm sorry dittany, but you didn't.

'"I think parents should stop dressing little girls in pink and little boys in blue."'

You've said this and quoted it a fair bit now.

If you meant the other, that does make sense - but you can probably see now why I am struggling to follow your argument, because you didn't include a crucial qualification of it.

It's not out of context. Your argument is a bit confused. I find it surprising, because you are usually so radical. Maybe that is why it is tricky - I keep expecting you to advance the radical argument. But I don't think the confusion is really my fault here.

If you had simply agreed with me in the first place, I think you would have said so. It is not a difficult argument - it's the practice that's hard, as Norma's posts are making clear.

I think lots of men wear pink shirts to the office though don't they? The stigma seems to come from parents more maybe?

The one thing that worries me here is that all the things which are 'feminine' now become so denigrated they are not an acceptable option for males or females. Not every girl wants to be an engineer or a tree climber nor should they have to. Fashion journalist, beautician, whatever it is, are still very acceptable jobs/interests aren't they? They could just do with some male presence as traditionally male industries could do with more female presence.

dittany, I am probably being niave here but in rl are there parents who dress their children exclusively in pink or blue?

Also certainly where I work it is pretty much the fashion for blokes to be in pink or blue shirts. Look at the wide range of pink shirts at Thomas Pink.

I have followed the thread and arguments, but I am still left with a "so what if girls dress in pink?" feeling on the basis that the values, confidence, expectations of achievement and sense of self-worth are far more important than the colour of outfits that a girl wears.

Was going to ask the same Novice. I don't see much exclusive pink/blue dressing. No doubt there are necks of the woods where that happens, but if so, the problems go far deeper there than what is worn.

Sure, you have to start somewhere, but I think what Novice suggests wrt expectations of achievement, development of confidence and appreciation of self worth based on achievement is more important, especially in schools, and will in the long run render redundant the association of gender with inequality. I think any attempt to tackle the self worth question that is based on appearance can only reinforce the traditional focus on female appearance even if the intention is otherwise.