You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

Agree 100% with LeninGrad's closing statement. (08:50)

I like dittany and I also like Custardo, because they both stand up for their views. They are both sincere in their beliefs and they defend their beliefs. There is room for all views, but let's not accuse people of being "meanies" if they speak their minds.

'HereBe acknowledged last night that some of the emotive terms used aren't always helpful when disagreeing with people'

It's not possible to have heated discussions where people disagree on important issues, without some emotive language. It happens all over MN, often more so in other sections. Some disagreements in viewpoint can't be papered over by finding agreement without compromising sincere beliefs.

The emotive language in question is automatically jumping on someone's back and calling them an MRA/rape apologist/troll. Again. I don't feel it's neccessary, and can in fact set us back in trying to put our point across. There's a difference in asking someone if they intend to sound like a rape apologist and pointing out where they're wrong, and jumping on their post calling them a rape apologist when they may just be misguided.

'The emotive language in question is automatically jumping on someone's back and calling them an MRA/rape apologist/troll.'

But dittany has correctly called out many MRA and rape apologists. In the other cases, I think she is saying that the arguments are similar to those of MRA and rape apologists. The "Romeo" who buggered the underage girl said the sex was consensual. That's the sort of thing rape apologists say.

'I was also talking about dismissing people and/ or their views as anti-feminist or misogynistic. There is common ground, we could listen to each other and spend more time finding it sometimes.'

I agree we must be careful about accusing other people incorrectly. I was offended to be called "anti single mothers" because I believe that part of the cause of the riots was due to family breakdown and lack of good male role models. Diane Abbott and Gordon Brown have said similar things in the past. We all disagree on certain points, and sometimes others will accuse us of things that are incorrect.

Again, Claig. At the time, we didn't know it was rape. We had discussed it on the basis of the article which had claimed he was arrested for having sex, not for raping. Again. Had the original article said it was rape, no one would have defended him.

As for calling out the MRA and Rape apologists. As I mentioned before. When I first joined Mumsnet, some of my views were very misogynistic. I had 26 years of misogyny to undo. Had I posted during one of my weaker moments and been called a rape apologist, that could have potentially caused some damage. Again, when someone posts rape apologetics, you don't know what's happened in their own life to make them think that way. How do you know the woman you're shouting down for being a rape apologist hasn't been raped herself, and is reflecting her own self loathing and self blame into posts?

But the problem is that posters are not simply here to make friends. If they see something that they think is wrong, they will say it as they see it. Custardo does that and that is why I like reading her posts. She won't cowtow just to join the crowd. She is stirring it up on the politics board, laying in to CutGrant Shapps etc., because she believes what she says. It's about open and honest discussion.

Sometimes people do make false accusations against others, but that is part of an open and honest debating forum.

You can be open and honest without making accusations.

DontCallMeFrothy, of course many didn't realise it was rape. But as dittany said, it was pretty obvious that the "Romeo" story didn't hold any water. Dittany was amazed that no one could see it. All dittany did in that thread was argue against the prevailing view, against the crowd, who believed the "Romeo's" tale.

I agree with the rest of your post. I was offended to be called "anti single mothers". It's not nice, and to be called an MRA and rape apologist when you aren't one is not nice either. But how often does it really occur? And sometimes in heated discussion these things are said.

Just to clarify, I do think that sometimes calling things as they are, can be unhelpful; but are we really saying that we can never call things as they are?

Yes, often, it's unhelpful; it adds to the stereotype of nasty ole mn feminist meanies; but often, it's helpful to people who are following the debate and trying to sort out what they think. And I don't think we need to be helpful the whole time. Of course we all want to be (apart from anythign else, womena re conditioned to feel they ahve to be helpful to everyone and anyone), but helping individual women with their feminist thinking, is just one aspect of this board and not the whole purpose of it IYSWIM.

I think we need to be wary about tip-toeing round people who are actually spouting anti-feminist stuff - I think we need a mixture on here of people who will tip toe round, engage with them, try and gently lead them towards a realisation of what they are saying, and the robust response of calling a spade a spade. And most of us, hopefully, do both. The people who claim we only do the spade thing and none of the tip toeing, are generally the ones who got the spade after 100 posts of tiptoes.

My discomfort with your argument Lenin, is that it appears that you are only accepting the need to tip toe. We cannot always tip toe, we will never actually progress any discussions if we do so. I really do think that a lot of the time Dittany gets the flak on here, is because she doesn't often do the tip toeing thing, and i seriously think that if we don't think that there is space for ONE feminist who consistently tells it as it is without apology, without the hedging language that the rest of us use, without the nice feminine tics that we've all been conditioned to treat each other with the whole time, then this board will be finished as a genuine feminist space - it will simply be taken over by the "let's all agree that everything I do is a feminist act because I'm a woman" brigade and be a lot less intelligent, vibrant and inspiring. We should accept that tiptoeing can't always happen and as in other areas of MN, there's room for lots of different debating styles.

'You can be open and honest without making accusations.'

Not everyone can, that's why people can be accused of things that they are not.

And yes I can see tht ignoring something is one way to deal with it, but again there's a balance between allowing a post to stand which really must be challenged, and not giving undue attention to a wind up merchant.

We will sometimes get that balance wrong. But we do not get it wrong any more than in any other area of mumsnet and the reason people think we do is a) because unapologetic feminism pisses people off and b) there are constant threads like this, where we are having to discuss over and over again whether we're meanies or not and if we should behave better than the rest of mumsnet in order not to put people off. Meanwhile, we could be discussing feminism, but our time and energy gets siphoned off into these threads.

But what if someone says something disrespectful? Shouldn't people be allowed to call a spade a spade? It is a vibrant forum because people are not tip-toeing, because they are saying it as they see it. It is robust, but we are adults, we should be able to handle it.

I am for all views and not shouting down any posters. You have to have opposing views, we won't learn if we all see things through the same lens. But on the other hand, we have to be prepared to have our views challenged. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the debating kitchen.