Dominic Strauss-Kahn released

[aliceliddell]

There is no case to answer because Ms Diallo is an 'unreliable witness'. No medical or forensic evidence is relevant. When raped women are 'witnesses' in the legal system, their credibility is the topic of contention, not the evidence. The issue of consent is largely ignored. Criminal law requires 'presumption of innocence' and 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Is it this combination that results in an inadequate legal response to sexual violence or other factors? Can this be changed?

One of the main reasons that women don't go to the police is because they will be made out to be liars either by the police themselves, in court and in the media if it is a high profile case. (And by idiots and rape apologists on the internet.)

The notion that the rapist is innocent and that no rape occurred (ie the victim has not been raped) if there is no conviction, is ignorant, offensive and rape mythy to the extreme.

CRIKI that article makes for sad reading. Makes you wonder why society even bothers to pretend that rape is treated seriously. I really hate the patriarchy sometimes.

Beachcomber I totally agree - and thank you for the article CRIKI - it really makes uncomfortable reading.

Even so, just because a woman says she was raped, doesn't mean she was. I'll say again, Crystal Mangum

Sometimes it is just a case of innocent or guilty and the whole feminist thing has to take a back seat

noddy - have you read any of this thread?

But anyway - back to the original question. I cannot see how the 'he says/she says' characterisation of rape trials can operate alongside presumption of innocence/(potentially)unreliable evidence. The he says/she says is used in civil law, balance of probability; the beyond reasonable doubt principle is the basis of criminal law. These two ways of reaching a verdict are mutually exclusive? How about redefining 'reasonable'?

This is feminism 101. False rape charges are no more common than false charges for any other sort of crime. Crystal Mangum was documented to have a history of mental health issues and DNA evidence was not found to corroborate her story.

Unlike Ms Diallo.

To extrapolate that women routinely lie about rape on the basis of one case (or indeed the total documented percentage of false rape claims) is misogynistic. It is also lazy thinking, offensive and bigoted.

Ms Mangum is black - do you extrapolate from her story that black people are liars or that black people who report crimes are probably making false claims?

Never even said women routinely lie about rape based on one case. Just saying it happens. To say Crystal was black therefore all black people are liars is a logical fallicy. I think guilt by association, cannot remember

Every time someone has a conversation about a crime do you pop up and remind them that sometimes people make false claims? Or do you only do it for rape?

Depends on the conversation. If I were talking with friends about a work colleague who is not the most unreliable source of trust but he/she reported harrasment, i'd encourage people to think outside the box and entertain the possibility he/she might be making it up. In this case you can see Diallo had holes in her statements and there is every chance she lied

Edd let me put this to you simply.

You will have met and formed an opinion of said work colleague in your touching tale of being the sort of guy who just wants to be helpful and fair. You know nothing about Ms Diallo other than what you have read in the patriarchal press. It is stupid to pretend the two situations are anything alike.

Ah yes, the patriatchal press you say. When all else fails it's the fault of the patriarchy. You know nothing of DSK, other than what you read about from biased feminist viewpoints

That's a good idea SGM - the vast majority of rapists lie about their being rapists. On the basis of this we can logically start off with the assumption that it is more likely that DSK is lying than he is not. In fact we know he lies because he lied about having a sexual encounter with Ms Diallo at all.

www.nytimes.com/2011/08/25/nyregion/money-is-now-at-the-fore-of-strauss-kahn-case.html

"But one disadvantage for the defense of moving the case to federal court is that federal laws are more flexible in allowing prior, unrelated accusations of sexual misconduct to be entered as evidence, said Stephen Gillers, a professor at New York University Law School. That means that the testimony of other women who claimed that Mr. Strauss-Kahn sexually assaulted them may be permissible in a civil case in federal court. He is now facing an inquiry in France, brought about by the complaint of a woman who says he tried to rape her in 2003."

I would be interested to see what other women had to say about him.

If Sarkozy or the CIA think the best way to bring down a man they don't like, is to set up false rape allegation against them, then they are the least competent conspirators ever. "Honey traps" imply consensual sex, not rape allegations. There is simply no point setting a man up to be accused of rape, since no one believes real rape victims anyway. It is the least effective method of trying to damage a man's reputation, that there is. You might as well accuse him of being in cahoots with aliens to supply them with blameless humans to do anal probes on, I expect more people would believe that than that a rich white man can be a rapist.

" "Honey traps" imply consensual sex, not rape allegations. "

The theory here is that the sex was consensual (i.e. "honey trap") but then she claimed rape (as she was paid to do).

"There is simply no point setting a man up to be accused of rape, since no one believes real rape victims anyway."

Clearly you are not familiar with politics in France. Extramarital affairs are considered irrelevant. Rape, on the other hand, is a serious crime and effectively kills political aspirations.

Rape isn't a serious crime.

It's just one of those things that men do to women and women are occasionally unwise enough to complain about.

But everyone pretends it's a serious crime because it bloody well ought to be and acknowledging that most people do just think of it as one of those regrettable things that happens to women but we can't actually do anything about, is acknowledging the sheer barbarism of the way society approaches the question of rape.

Basically, the default is that rape is bad, but not actually bad enough to punish men for.

And also, why would she claim rape, when everyone knows that women who are raped are never believed?

What half-cock conspiracy is that?

What is the point of it?

Why not claim that you are anally probed by aliens instead? The chances of being believed, are probably just as high.

As I said, you are clearly not familiar with French politics. Not even with politics in general, it seems.

Fair point. The underclass would use their fists to settle problems with their opponent. The higher-ups like political figures would use more cunning and unorthodox tactics

And HerBeX what are you talking about? Are you saying all women who cry are NEVER believed? You can't be this naive

HerBex is saying that it overwhelmingly the case that women who 'cry' rape are not believed. 94% of women tell the truth. 6% get convicted. Even the word 'cry' implies making it up. You don't hear people refer to 'crying burglary' do you.

And it doesn't seem that rape is that reviled in French political culture seeing as there is already talk of DSK rejoining the presidential race next year.

Sorry for bad grammar. That should of course be 6% of perpetrators get convicted.

Wrong, her quote was And also, why would she claim rape, when everyone knows that women who are raped are never believed?

You seem to not have read it properly, as you can see the quote never mentioned 'crying rape'

Comparing crying rape to crying burgelry doesn't work tbh

Ed Indeed. You were the one who used the word 'cry':

And HerBeX what are you talking about? Are you saying all women who cry are NEVER believed? You can't be this naive

And my point stands. You're right. Crying burglary doesn't work. It doesn't work for rape either ? unless you believe that most women lie about it...

"And it doesn't seem that rape is that reviled in French political culture seeing as there is already talk of DSK rejoining the presidential race next year."

Did you miss the part where charges against DSK were dropped?