Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

[skrumle]

Was chatting with my H last night and mentioned the Romeo and Juliet law in Ireland that's been discussed on here a few times. Anyway, when I asked if he thought it was reasonable his immediate answer was "no". I then asked him: if our son was gay, and started a conversation about a sexual experience that he was unhappy/uncomfortable about would he be more likely to feel that our son had been forced/co-erced if he was the one penetrated rather than penetrating and got a in reply...

I have to be honest, when I read the original thread on here my automatic view was that to protect girls over boys like this was to deny the fact that girls enjoy sex too, almost like taking a step back. When I read the thread fully though and thought about the implications for girls I probably did start to think that girls should have more protection than boys.

So, should there be a presumption that penetration equals a greater degree of control? So two heterosexual 15yos - greater responsibility lies with the boy to ensure that this is what both of them want?

So you don't think it's interesting that almost everyone who posted made sure to state that they enjoy PiV sex?

I think it is really interesting personally but obviously you don't have to agree!

She did say, for what it is worth, that she finds the personal and political a bit hard to reconcile and, in all fairness, she did say this may make her a bit of a hypocrite (well, no crime in that).

Sb, I understand your point, but I think there is a big difference between trust and submission within a consensual relationship. I don't see that there is anything more submissive about sex than there is about, say, climbing a mountain with somebody who could use their greater physical power to trip you up/push you off.

Hopefully when most people are in a trusting/consensual relationship the idea that somebody might be intending to hurt you sexually is not a plausible scenario.

The inequality of it is then about the unintentional harm that can happen, now matter how good the intentions of both people involved.

On a separate issue, I don't think the issue here is that most women don't want PIV sex, but an issue of how frequently they want it and at what point in their lives they want to have it. There are clearly differences between the choices of a 16 year old, a 20 year old with no children and a 25 year old who gave birth a couple of weeks ago. As for it being a biological necessity, well for procreative purposes, you only need to do it a few times in your life.

I don't think that being a lesbian has much to do with whether or not people enjoy the physical experience of being penetrated. Why would it? People don't have a sexual orientation based on preference for orgasm through the clitoris or g spot. But it seems that some heterosexual women feel the need to defend why their sexual experiences are mostly about PIV, which I'm surprised by, because I didn't realise it was the main part of sex for so many people. I don't think there is a need to defend it on the basis that it is enjoyable, because nobody is suggesting it isn't.

SQ - I see why you think that, but I think it's more to do with Sakura's position early in the thread about a feminist aim being to reduce the amount of PIV sex in an equal society, and wondering what sex would look like in a non-patriarchal society.

I and others (I think) were protesting that actually, PIV is the main part of our current sex lives and we are not interested in changing that.

I tried to reconcile my own desire for PIV sex (which I see as a fundamentally unequal activity) with my desire to be in an otherwise equal relationship, and further extrapolated into female relationships with men and how they may be affected by PIV sex.

I posted ages ago upthread about the chicken / egg situation: I think PIV sex is a cause of societal inequality, not an effect of it.

It can be argued (as with most of these things) that the effect of a patriarchal view doesn't just affect women adversely but also men who cannot measure up to the patriarchal ideal.

So the idea that penetrative sex is the be-all and end-all isn't just a bit of a problem for women who prefer other activities, girls who aren't ready, women who don't have access to contraception/ante-natal support, and women who find the contraceptive choices available unsuitable for them.

It is also a bit of a problem for men with erectile problems, premature ejaculation and that sort of stuff.

Of course lots of people live PiV and that is the natural climax of their sexual encounters. But for a lot of people for lots of reasons it would be better if this were not seen as the "ultimate" almost to the exclusion of other activities. And in our culture it most definitely is seen as the ultimate act even though many people actually find other acts more initimite.

If it were seen that sex included a range of behaviours, all of which "counted", then the pressure would be off for men to "perform" and for girls to "let him" and all the rest of it.

x-posts

It's important to add preference over politics re PIV, which is why people are saying that they like it.

Sardine[17.52]
[.........who have added........................]
you make a very good point-it certainly comes across as this.
its like some kind of validation for being a woman.
its a power thing isnt it[with reg to men]

sparky

So what of the views of people who are not heterosexual, or prefer other activities?

Their views are still valid, surely?

I don't think you can separate out these issues of personal psychological preference, social and cultural expectations or say that a biological difference has to lead to an unequal outcome.

Clearly our personal preferences are partially the result of the society we live in, and social inequality is a consequence of social norms that are created around biological differences. But those biological differences don't lead to inequality unless we create a social world or forms of personal interaction that create that inequality.

stripey talking about this thread with DH just now I realised something.

I don't agree with you that it is because men are dominant in the act of penetrative sex that they are dominant in society (not very neatly put but I think this is what you are getting at).

Surely they are dominant because they are physically bigger and stronger (on average) full stop?

Just thought I'd chip in with CAP and ask if a woman can ever be submissive doing that?

I consider "sex" to be any sexual activity at all and it doesn't have to end in an orgasm for either party, I'm not interested in other peoples' definitions of what sex is, that's up to the individual.
I think all the women who are saying that PIV is important to them (like me) are doing to so to dispel the assumption that most women get nothing from it.
As for the original question "Does penetration = presumption of power/control?" In the context of an equal and healthy relationship, it's totally meaningless , it simply doesn't matter. Only consent matters.

CAP?

Nobody is saying that women get nothing from it.

im not sure i agree Maliface[19.12]
["does penetration=presumption of power/control.......................it simply doesnt matter.

as its been said a few times on this thread"i like cock"[which sardine has pointedout]
well-personnally i dont care who does and who dont....however if someone is finding this important to point out....then actually..they might not be equel.
penetration=presumption of power and controll=women finding it important to say that they like cock=validating themselves as women=while man has power and controll.
so then...yes it would matter.[ill try and think how to put this better]

sparky

Littleblue, I'm pretty sure there was a post upthread to the effect that most women don't get their sexual pleasure from PIV?
If women really do think that the penetrative aspect of sex is inferior, why are there so many penetrative sex toys?

Plus, Biology has made it so an orgasm is much stronger when your vagina is stretched/filled.

Strap-ons/doube ended toys were specifically designed for Lesbians originally too.

We are designed to have the urge to be penetrated, but that's not the same as the urge to be dominated, not everyone who likes PIV wants to be dominated ( although some of us do ).

I said it doesn't matter "in a healthy and equal relationship". not that it doesn't matter at all.

Malificence, nobody is saying that PIV sex is inferior. Nobody has said that no lesbian has ever existed who does not like PIV sex. Your points about biology are just bizarre, particularly about the 'urge to be penetrated.'

Part of this thread is about how much PIV sex women want to have; nobody is arguing that most women never want it or that most women want it all the time. You seem to be entering into defending an extreme position with this 'urge to be penetrated' stuff.

I agree with mal in that a healthy and equal relationship it just doesn't come up (oo er) which is why I don't feel I have much to say in response to SB's point.

I think if you offered a large proportion of men the option to do 69 where the woman gets to orgasm and the man gets a bj to orgasm which most men enjoy and want more than normal sex anyway then I doubt you would get many men turning it down. If you do it as 69 you both get it at the same time, both get orgasms, and no one has the long bit doing one and then the other.

I think oral puts people off if you have to do one person to orgasm and then the other, if you do it both at the same time loads of men want to do it as much as sex.

I think my sentence about lesbians might have lost meaning with the number of negatives! I simply meant some lesbians like penetration some times and some don't, and nobody on this thread has suggested otherwise.

Enough with the 69 obsession jellybeans/ilovedora/sunny or whoever you are this week!
How do you know what most people want or like anyway?

I'd rather not have sex at all than have it your preferred way, my DH feels the same way. Your way isn't wrong, it's just not my way.

There is no such thing as normal sex either, all sexual activity is sex!

Alright malifience chill out! I wasnt even talking to you. I was saying for the people who said they didnt want as much piv but their men didnt want to do oral. I couldnt give a flying fuck how you have sex tbh and never mentioned you Calm down woman!!

I don't think identifying that women in general have an 'urge to be penetrated' is a particularly extreme view. I think it makes total sense to accept this as fact and then work out the politics of the following:

1. men have an urge to penetrate
2. women want to be penetrated
3. penetration carries connotations of power, domination and submission