Feminism and confirmation bias

[jennyvstheworld]

It is an incontravertible truth that equality of opportunity is still often lacking in the UK and continues to require our attention. It is also true that power in society is achieved by adopting attributes more often found amongst men. Let us say, therefore, that the general tenets of feminism are correct.

Some people, however, seem to believe that because they are feminists (and because there is veracity in the notion of feminism), they themselves are incapable of making either an incorrect or even tenuous statement.

Mass generalisations are habitual, statistics - cherry-picked blindly from research without consideration of context or criteria - are thrown about to support dubious claims and the most minute and inconsequential event can be twisted to demonstrate conspiracy and oppression.

I offer the following as a statement made on this thread that no one saw fit to challenge:

"but where are the "good" male role models going to come from? men show no interest in teaching, little interest in community work, they are en masse opting out."

There are no good male role models? Men show no interest in teaching?? Men are not interested in community work? They are en masse opting out? (opting out of what - society? Community?) All four of these statements are erroneous and offensive and yet not one person - from all those who claim to believe in fairness and an end to the judgement of a person based on their gender - took issue with this.

This is just one of many examples. I have also seen opprobrium levelled at single-mothers and SAHMs. I have seen praise offered to successful women concurrent with condemnation of their male peers despite both forming part of the 'patriarchy'. There have also been a hundred other ill-conceived ideas that are accepted or condoned through silence because they fall under the feminist banner.

So my question is this: we are all guilty of confirmation bias to some extent; how guilty is feminism?

I will be interested to see how many replies demonstrate the hypothesis.

Ok, I can see how that might be interpreted, but it wasn't really what I meant. My aim was to avoid an overly long description, with a million and one caveats, to summarise the difference between someone who raises sceptical questions about the nature of some people's 'feminist gaze' (as I've heard it referred to) and those who apply that gaze.

What on earth do I mean by a certain element? I mean all the posters on here who show little interest in discussing the questions I raise and are more engaged in picking through my terminology and motivations in extreme detail. How is this not shutting down debate and what am I supposed to conclude motivates it?

That's a really nice put-down Prolesworth, but it simply doesn't reflect reality. I don't doubt that there a number of people who view my remarks as 'snarky' and who have their backs up, but that does not make it so. As I said, I have some sympathy with the fact that this site is heavily trolled and I think that has a lot to do with how ready posters are to wade in 'defend' the territory.

I reassert my view that any 'newbie' who wishes to offer a criticism of debate on here (particularly of stalwarts, of which there are clearly many) - even if they do this with the aims of feminism in mind - will be assumed to be here just to cause trouble. Every time they are attacked that is 'a taste of their own medicine', every time they respond in kind it is further evidence of their troll nature.

Clearly, the moral high ground and the authority for deciding what constitutes civilised debate is on a sliding scale depending on your viewpoint.

At the end of my original post I said "I will be interested to see how many replies demonstrate the hypothesis." I would say the vast majority of posts on here focus their attention on me personally whilst, again, not one person has agreed that suggesting that men have no interest in teaching or community issues is over-stepping the mark (or even tried to defend it). No one has talked about the issue of good role models or the suggestion that there aren't any - either in existence or in the pipeline. I think this rather proves my point. You, naturally, will disagree.

"When the basis of your 'debating' style is to scream liar ( in bold and capitals) at posters who disagree with you, it's hard to take this thread seriously."

Founded on what SGM? Your assertion about women and jail sentences was genuinely a load of old cobblers that you never managed to justify beyond citing a book that I didn't have access to. I suspect this is what you are referring to. Yes, I got annoyed at how you weasled your way through the issue. No apologies for that.

Jenny[feminists with boys hopefully would work with their child in a positive way......]

Jenny-i left yesterday and ive also walked away from everywhere/everything else[ive really really had enough]-ive been talking on my/elsewhere and rl.
well not just talking-fighting and i have done for a long time-hence me having had enough.the final straw has been the last few weeks on mn.
[this on top of rl has slaughtered me].....ive come back just for this one as i wanted to reply to something youve said[the above][hence my username]

for me[in feminism]its not about disliking/hating males[i also have sons]although there is a few i dont like-for me its about trying to open peoples eyes to the patriarchy and also try and fight the patriarchy[it wont happen in my lifetime-but at least i might be able to put a dent in it].
im not a loony who has got nothing better to do than write a thousand e mails just for the fun of it and liking my own voice.

the patriarchy=has given me the name underclass so it can keep me down[others see this name and dont see nothing else]-has made me have to fight and fight the "system"for myself and my children-has made me have to fight and fight just to be me-has made single parents now go back years-has made me beg on my knees [as a woman with disabilitys]to make others see my strenths and not my weaknesses-has made me have to try and hold my head up and fight the shame for the rape and abuse ive had-has made me fight the shame of having dv-has made me fight labels put on me because this keeps me down-[and shuts me up].........and more...........

all this.....makes me fight the people in front of me.....the stupid meetings i have to go to......where i have to continuisly defend myself and fight to be seen as me and not a stastistic/bit of paper/leaflet ect somewhere.
from the person with a tick chart at the jobcentre[where i have to go to explain why i havent got a job even tho im very ill].......to the person with another tick chart who scrutinises me as a mother[because of the things ive already mentioned]............then the rest of society..........but i fight them and try and defend myself but its because they are all victims of the patriarchy aswell-so we re all fighting each other.

in this.....while im defending myself and fighting.....im doing the same for my children[some of them are boys].....who inceddently are marginilised because of me being me[vicious circle innit]and them being themselves...
and trying to bring them up the best i can[while the patriarchy keeps giving me a kick in the crutch]........in this....i stand up for some marginilised men...
however....since im more marginilised[as a woman that is/has......]i fight more on the side of women because of the obvious and the all above said.

men have been fucked over aswell-after all its the patriarchy that has led some to be allowed to behave the way they have/do.......which leads me to being fucked over.[get the picture?]

im running out of finger power now with this post-so ill stop.

you have said that people have/are accusing you of not engaging-well you havent engaged with me youreself and i doubt if you will answer this-but please read it anyway.......its about the patriarchy jenny....its had us all over
and some more than others.....im trying to fight from my own corner but i cant fight everything.....so i have to fight for mostly women as a woman.
maybe if we can fight from diffrent angles[all of us]we might be able to dent the patriarchy.....but we cant do it if we are continuisly baiting each other with"what about that person or what about the other person"-we can fight at diffrent angles and understand where each other is coming from and come together in the middle a bit.
im off again now.....[oh btw-im bringing my sons up/supporting my sons the best i can in this patriarchic society-so they dont hate others and trying my best to make others understand so they dont hate them][doing the same for my daughters]

sparky

You 'naturally will disagree' because you are only engaging with this thread to pick a fight. Your reply, which answers none of what I said except to throw one line back at me demonstartes this. I am entirely at ease with feeling a bit put out at this.

im not chucking anything back at you jenny-im explaining.
i dont want to fight with anyone.
and i feel i have ansered[feminists with boys...............]
im not agreeing or disagreeing-im explaining.

Hello Sparky

About statistics, right? I did want to talk to you about that earlier post, but I didn't come to it until well after another poster had clearly said something rather offensive (since deleted by MN). I felt a bit uncomfortable with what had happened and shied away - apologies.

I need to return to RL for a bit, but will certainly consider your post above when I come back.

Glad to see you didn't leave entirely

jenny
[about stastistics......................................]
ok fair enough jenny.
as for stastistics-yeah im not a fan of them.
however-i think it could of been a interesting discussion.
as i said-i dont want to fight with anyone[i do enough in rl]-
i have got a problem with stastistics and things but you know...sometimes you can walk away from a discussion with a diffrent view[or not]
this is why i like discussions and not fights
oh im only back for today-im a terrible flouncer but im tired and need some space away for a while.

sparky

How guilty are feminists of confirmation bias?

Hmm, all feminists worldwide are 67 percent less likely to suffer from confirmation bias in their thinking than non-feminists actually, according to data from a Harvard study in 1998.

Because feminists tend to be more educated about this sort of thing they watch out for it and therefore act in a much more fair manner to all people in their lives, both men and women (disclaimer: I may have made some of my post up).

CGICGI I think that's what I supposed would be the case before I came here.

Maybe the questions you raise are not interesting except as an example of how one person sets up false antitheses and paints others with a very broad brush, based on some sort of persecution complex personal to herself? (Based also on a tendency to misread the posts of other people it seems).

'"I will be interested to see how many replies demonstrate the hypothesis." -- can you see how this is simply casting a net in order to have your own bias confirmed?

Well, I'm a newbie (here maybe 2 or 3 weeks?) and I can't say I've ever felt attacked when expressing my views, whether they agree or disagree. I haven't a clue who the "stalwarts" are mainly because some change their screen names (I just tried it to see how to do it!) and contributors have no avatars or photos. I haven't actually noticed cliques either. Far too often, people will shout "clique" or "ganging up" when in reality, it's just a lot of individual people who don't know each other from Adam but often happen to share similar views.

As often as not, it's a bunch of individual people who are all fed up with the behaviour of others who seem intent on baiting (e.g. posting deliberately ambiguous of provocative opening posts to set people running, veiled or not so veiled personal attacks and patronising comments, squealing like a stuck pig when challenged or questioned, etc.) It just gets really tiresome, really boring.

Can anyone tell me - is it possible to "block" specific posters? I think I saw on one thread that you can block a specific "room/board," but not sure about individuals. It sometimes makes threads read strangely if you can't see some contributions, but in certain circumstances, it can make the message board experience much more pleasant and productive!

Sparky

I think your post is a very eloquent one, thank you. I completely understand what you say and think that society works very much as you have described it. It interests me that you have said you feel part of an underclass as I think there is a clear heirarchy in place and it's very like the old class system.

I think this heirarchy is based on power and there is nothing like a big fat lump of money to obtain power. The problems, for me, extend from how money is obtained. Obviously you can inherit it or win it on the lottery. Nine times out of ten, however, money is gained by displaying certain characteristics; these are aggression, competitiveness and greed. As a society we reward these qualities with high-paying jobs and positions of authority. Big payoffs are achieved by making big gambles. The problem with the recession is that bankers found ways of making big gambles with other people's money. If this isn't an example of the powerful screwing the less powerful, I don't know what is!

If you do not feel that you want to claw your way to the top you won't get any power. If you have obligations outside of work, like children, you won't get any power. If there are reasons you cannot work in the way the system wants you to, like having a disability, then you are definitely pushed to one side and you will not get any power.

Historically, the people who have been in a position to get power have been men. It remains the case that it is mainly women who are single parents. I think that it is true to say that aggression and competitiveness are traits that are more inherent in the male character. This could partly be because of the way humans have evolved and partly because of how we condition men to be. Women, meanwhile, have traditionally been expected to display different characteristics and perhaps nature has a hand in that too.

I think it's horrible how you should feel shame because of DV. Did you see Empusa's thread called disappointed with self? I posted on there about how people expect women to sort of put up with this somehow and that that was related to conditioning.

I like your suggestion that the system can be fought from different angles and that we shouldn't fight amongst ourselves, but meet in the middle. I also agree with you that the system fucks us all over, just to varying degrees. As I said before, I recognise that there's more women fucked-over than men because of traditional gender characteristics and because of single-motherhood. If we could create a society where talent and diversity of character are used to their full potential I am completely sure that this would be a good thing for everyone. Except those people who abuse others of course!

I think we are getting even more individualistic in this country and that means that the situation will only get worse unless we do something about it. The London Riots demonstrate how using aggression to get want you want simmers under the surface. I also couldn't believe it when David Cameron said it was all the fault of fatherless children (ie it's single mothers' fault!!)

It is because I think like this that I get upset when people say things that aren't true or are over the top. I think it excludes other people who would otherwise have agreed. I come from a culture though where you have to shout to be heard and everyone gets very excited and emotionally involved with the debate. Maybe I should learn some 'English understatement'!

I feel I've waffled on a bit, sorry.

CRIKRI, wrt blocking individual posters -- afaik on MN it's in for a penny in for a pound. You take the rough with the smooth. You can always ignore individual posters and engage with others.

Jenny
thankyou for replying and thankyou for not using big words
well-i tottally agree with what youve said-as i think the same.
youve said some interesting things such as........
[...you feel that you are part of the underclass............]
hmmmm-im told im the underclass.
but really-im the person at the bottom that was working class yesterday and the person that was higher up is now working class[well the working poor]-yep-there is still a heirarchy but its changed for the[even]worse-its just that now theres fingers being pointed at the "underclass"-so the working poor dont realise they are the working poor-in other words we are being fucked over yet again but we at the bottom is being used as fodder.

[if you fel you dont want to claw youre way to the top........you wont get any power]
but what is power?and why do we want power?[this is a genuine question]
this is something ive never understood.
i dont understand this at all-isnt power power over others and patriarchic?

im not ashamed no more jenny[dv]-i havent seen Empusas thread-i flounced off but i shall have a look.

can i ask you please?[obviously dont have to answer]what is youre culture?
[no paticcallar reason for asking this-just interested]

sparky

Sparky

I'm not sure about why power is so important. Buddhists, as far as I know, think that true happiness can only be achieved when we completely stop being selfish and wanting more and more 'stuff'. They might be right, but it doesn't seem to be very human to be like that.

Have you heard about the hierarchy of needs? Google 'Maslow' and you'll find it. He basically says that at the most basic level people want food and warmth. Once we have sorted these out, we move onto other things like friendship and achievement. At the highest level he talks about morality and a lack of prejudice. It seems to me though, that some people get fixated on collecting 'stuff' and making themselves feel good by comparing themselves to other people who have less stuff than they do. Yes, being as powerful as possible ultimately means that you will be able to feel better about yourself because you can lord it over everyone else. I think it's probably addictive and like all addictions a little self-destructive at times.

Ultimately, though, I just think that's the way we are taught to be through behaviour. Powerful people get rewarded so people want to be powerful. The problem for me is that the behaviour which secures power is pretty anti-social in a lot of ways.

I'm not feeling very comfortable with posting personal information just at the moment, but I was born in Liverpool and have spent most of my life in the UK. I've been abroad a lot though - maybe fifty other countries? I'm always living out of a bag, me Where are you from?

Jenny
yep-i think that[when we stop being selfish and wanting more and more stuff]
actually-i think its quite nuts[stuff]-i think we just need enough to get by.
stuff just cause problems.besides-how can you square having a bently when some poor bastard somewhere else cant even have a meal[or water]
nah-it dont seem too human cos we have forgotton how to be human sometime.
no-i havent heard of the hierarchy of needs-thankyou jenny-i shall google it.

ha ha ha ha[lording it over everyone else]-yes!
i suppose it could be addictive-but its the patriarchy again isnt it.
[ultimately.............]...yep-agree.

oh sorry jenny-i didnt mean post personal info-i just wondered if you was from a diffrent country[i like talking to others from diffrent countrys-not that i dont like talking to anyone else]

oh im one of them awful lowlifes[my background is irish traveller/english]
and yeah-i have a bag-been more settled these last few years though[dont like it]

youre growing on me Jenny-thankyou for replying.

sparky

Sparky

It's certainly the patriarchy as you describe that word. I tend not to use it because I don't like using a single word to describe such a complicated issue. People can make all sorts of assumptions based on the words you use.

Regarding background, you might like this quote from the actor Anthony Sher:

"As a gay Jewish white South African, I belong to quite a lot of minority groups. You constantly have to question who you are, what you are and whether you have the courage to be who you are."

I believe in courage and I think you have to be very brave to show courage in who you are. I hope this makes sense even though technically it obviously doesn't!

I like different countries too and I work a great deal with all sorts of people; my facebook friends list looks like the United Nations

Anyway, g'night Sparky. Hope to see you back here... For the sake of your blood-pressure I'll try to stop rising to other people's arguments

lol-nite jenny

sparky