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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can we DO something about the awful system in this country WRT courts and access to children after divorce?

197 replies

BertieBotts · 09/08/2011 21:34

I've heard one too many awful story now. Why the hell are we letting children down, forcing access with abusive ex partners, even when the children don't want it, making it difficult to gain supervised contact when supervised has already been given, forcing the resident parent (mainly mothers) to make their children available for contact, getting their hopes up and doing NOTHING when the NRP breaks that same contact order by not turning up for weeks on end, causing considerable distress to the children involved. NRPs being allowed to refuse to bring children home if they are repeatedly showing prolonged distress at being away from their main carer. It being extremely difficult to reduce contact or restart it off slowly, regardless of the age of the child, even if the parent has good reason to want to do this.

I understand there are bitter ex-partners who will try to deny their ex access to the children because of personal differences or spats, but seriously? Are there that many that we need a court system which immediately assumes all resident parents are conniving and bitter and all NRPs are loving and involved? Or is this just another fucking media frenzy like how common so-called "false rape accusations" are?

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NicknameTaken · 11/08/2011 11:58

This is a debate close to my own heart, because I have an ex who was abusive to me but is very involved with our DD (now 3.5). He makes full use of his contact, and always shows up. I agonize about how good he is for her, because I think the relationship is all about his needs - he loves to pose as the good father, soaks up her admiration for him, cares more about being popular with her than what's good for her (eg. feeds her non-stop chocolate). None of it looks bad on paper, but I'm just ill-at-ease. I keep wanting to use the phrase "emotional incest" (and god knows, I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I think she doesn't have her own bed in his house). He won't let her feel what she really feels - shouts and calls her naughty if she ever dares to cry. It feels like he's grooming her to meet his needs.

But looking at it from a court perspective, there's nothing other than my sense of ill-ease, so genuinely, I don't see what a court could do about it. They can't assume harm in the absence of any evidence of harm - to do so would be unfairly prejudicial to NRPs. All I can do, short of running away with her and changing our names, is watch and wait and hope for the best.

swallowedAfly · 11/08/2011 12:10

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BertieBotts · 11/08/2011 16:33

Agree totally sAf - and I always feel awful posting that on those threads because I know it doesn't help the cause and props up the image of "mad, bitter ex-wife refusing father access to children because of spite" - but in those cases it really is necessary, and it shouldn't be at all. There should be systems in place to protect these children, and the mothers.

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swallowedAfly · 11/08/2011 16:41

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3ros1 · 12/08/2011 15:53

I am talking to you from MATCHmothers.org. We are an organisation of Mothers apart from their children.
I have reasd the comments made on the divorce situation against Dad's and would be interested in placing our views on your members minds. Fathers can be difficult and our membership total confirms that figure. We are hoping that family court system will change providing more access rights to our angels.
Please feel free to look at our website.
Rosalind Barton
Chair person

CaptainBarnacles · 13/08/2011 10:52

Oh NicknameTaken, I feel for you. What a crappy situation.

sakura · 14/08/2011 15:25

I can't even look at this thread because of all the feminist issues, this is the one that probably upsets me the most.

THere is no such thing as mothers' rights in any country in the world. Only fathers rights exist. It used to be the case, in the UK, that a man could choose where the children would go upon his death and the will had to be abided by. Women have traditionally had no rights at all over their own children.
A small concession was made, whereby children now (quite rightly) go to the person who cared for them the most. But the reasoning is that it's "in the best interest of the children" and it has nothing whatsoever to do with "mothers' rights" (for they don't exist.)

I began a thread on MN a while ago about how the state had the power to remove children from a home where a woman was being battered, but that they didn't have the power to remove the batterer himself. MAny social workers came on to explain that their hands were tied because their priority was the children, and that another department dealt with the batterer.
Well, yes, but the question you have to ask is why? Why is it so difficult to remove the person who is causing the suffering?
The only answer I could find was "because men have made the rules to benefit them"

Then, if a woman finally manages to somehow leave a batterer she is then forced to allow him to see the kids

Women are persecuted left right and centre.

sakura · 14/08/2011 15:32

I shall be strongly advising my daughter not to marry.
I won't tell her this, but what I'm really thinking is women should just conceive by one night stands.
What is this bullshit where a human being carries a child in their body for nine months and risks their life to bring it into the world, and gives up their body (if they breastfeed) and time, and watches their career slide out of view, and loses earnings or promotional opportunities because they're on maternity leave etc... just for the father of the child to say that his "rights" are just as valid as hers !!!!?!?!???
Ridiculous.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 14/08/2011 15:33

Doesn't Lundy Bancroft mention this in his book? I haven't read it, but I am sure when it was the book club book a number of people mentioned the research that he done into the correlation between DV against the mother and DV against the children. In this case I am meaning DV to = all types of abuse.

sakura · 14/08/2011 15:35

yes, Bancroft's book is really important

PiousPrat · 14/08/2011 16:04

I think what is disturbing me most today is that I tried to think of an example whereby fathers have no rights, or less rights than the mother, and the only thing I could come up with was the children of slaves.

It used to be that the mother was responsible for (but had no rights over) the child until they were deemed of working age, but the father had no rights or responsibility, whether he was also a slave or he was a slave owner. In cases where a slave owner impregnated one of his own slaves, he has rights over the child in that it was counted as one of his chattels but if it were a neighbour for example, the father would have to buy his own child although that would likely mean parting it from it's mother.

How shitty is it that the only example I can think of of fathers not having equal or greater rights is when the actual owning of people is involved? Wtf does that say about society that the great progress of the last 100 years is that father have gone from being able to sell their offspring to merely demanding acess on their terms? Hmm

swallowedAfly · 14/08/2011 18:02

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swallowedAfly · 14/08/2011 18:02

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Truckrelented · 14/08/2011 18:38

This doesn't sound much like equality does it?

Fathers don't have rights, the children do.

Absent fathers can't just walk back into children's lives, and fathers rarely get residency, less than 5% and that includes widowers.

Fathers should have parental responsibility, the majority of fathers, I would have thought, do a pretty good job.

swallowedAfly · 14/08/2011 18:41

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edam · 14/08/2011 18:50

Truck - fathers rarely get residency because in our society today, fathers are rarely the primary carers. I would imagine a father who was the primary carer would have a good case for residency.

edam · 14/08/2011 18:53

Oh, and I completely agree the courts system and social services have seriously screwed attitudes on this, that put adult and child victims of violence at risk. The 'best interests of the child' are clearly NOT served by forcing contact with a violent parent. A parent who is violent to the other parent but hasn't displayed violence against the child itself is still not a safe or proper person to have unsupervised access to a child.

The first duty of the courts and social services ought to be to keep a child safe. Not to promote some fashionable nonsense about father's rights.

BertieBotts · 14/08/2011 18:55

Read the thread, Truckulent. Most of your points have already been addressed. I'm not going to engage more than that unless you're bringing any proper arguments to it.

Huh, funny story. XP has just decided he wants contact with DS again after 4 months of not bothering to ask how he is, and first he assumes he can just see him as per our old agreement, despite DS barely knowing who he is (Quote: "I don't want to see Daddy, ever. He is not my best friend." - the "ever" is a bit of a theme at the moment though) - and then to top it off, he wants to bring his new girlfriend who he has been with a matter of weeks. Right. So has he had a sudden pang of guilt about not seeing him? Or does he just want to show him off?

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swallowedAfly · 14/08/2011 18:58

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BertieBotts · 14/08/2011 19:00

Also, could you imagine if someone posted on AIBU saying "AIBU not to let my DC's go to this person's house?" if said person was known to be involved with drugs, or was an alcoholic, or violent, or had dodgy mates who were round a lot? I'm pretty sure XP was doing coke last year, but couldn't prove it. If it was anyone else, I'd be totally justified in saying no, he can't come, but it's his father? Oh, you can't deny him access to his son!

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Truckrelented · 14/08/2011 19:09

I have read all the thread.

And I've responded to the last few posts particularly.

'i sometimes wonder whether paternity leave, father's rights etc and the idea that men should be equally responsible for their children and they'll do that if we give them all the rights is just one massive red herring'

But I suppose as the resident parent myself, I perhaps see it from a different angle.

I don't think all fathers should be punished because of the abusive ones.
Also I don't think abusive parents should have access to the children.

BertieBotts · 14/08/2011 19:30

But I (and others on this thread) am/arenot advocating punishing ALL fathers because of abusive ones. I'm talking about abusive fathers and fathers who use access to children to get to the mother. The assumption on this thread is that we are talking about the same, as StewieGriffinsMom and SardineQueen pointed out at the beginning of the thread.

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swallowedAfly · 14/08/2011 19:46

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STIDW · 14/08/2011 20:32

Apologies in advance for a long post.

Sadly it is an imperfect world we live in and there will always be some injustice. However, many parents will be aggrieved with a judicial decision that has gone against them and are in denial, or unable to see the whole or accept the whole picture. Without knowing the other side these stories are unverifiable and little more than uncorroborated hearsay.

Children's views have to be seen in light of their age and maturity. Good parents will always ask children for their views but it is adults who make decisions. For example, you might ask your child's opinion about moving house or changing the school but it is you, the parent, who ultimately takes the decision. It is important to understand the rationale for the child?s preferences and to consider them in the light of all circumstances of the family relationships to understand how they fit into the child?s best interests.

Most children at some point will be resistant to contact, even children of intact families may reject a parent from time to time only to reconcile their feelings and change their mind later. Children may resist contact because contact is unrewarding, they witnessed DV, as a reaction to the hurt of the breakdown of the family or because of loyalty conflicts. While a child may have been telling the primary carer that they did not want to see the other parent, in fact they may be either ambivalent or actively want to, or that their concerns about about expressing their positive feelings about the parent with the minority of care can be addressed. Observed contact may show that that a child who has been, or described as being, resistant or frightened, may show no such reactions or lose their reticence quickly.

Contact isn't anything to do with parental rights. The view the courts take is that it is children's right to contact in all but the most exceptional of circumstances. Research shows that children who are insecure about their parentage and heritage tend to grow up with low self esteem leading to emotional and behavioural problems in later life such as academic under achievement, teenage pregnancy and dysfunctional relationships in adulthood. Generally most children benefit from contact with a parent even if the parent's behaviour leaves much to be desired by most people's standards. Therefore the courts are very persistent in trying to overcome a child?s resistance to contact where this is not seen to be well founded.

New measures implemented in December 2008 were in part to address the issue of NRP's not taking up contact awarded to them. Since then all contact orders with a warning notice attached are served on both parties and either party can apply for enforcement. The first line of enforcement is conditions attached to the order or directions to attend an activity such as Parenting Information Programmes, anger management or a DV programme. It is also possible for the parent with the majority of care to use contempt of court proceedings or ask the court to vary an order to reflect the reality of contact uptake. When making an order the court must ensure it is in the best interests of the child and unless there is evidence that a child is suffering emotional harm even sporadic contact is better than none.

DV itself isn't a reason for no contact. The courts consider the effect DV which has been established has on the child and the parent with whom the child is living. Other factors taken into account include whether the perpetrator of DV shows any remorse and has done anything to address the behaviour, the likely behaviour during contact of the parent seeking contact and its effect on the child, any harm the child might suffer if a contact order is made and what measures can be put in place to ensure contact is safe. Only in very exceptional cases will no contact be found to be in the best interests of the child.

StewieGriffinsMom · 14/08/2011 23:35

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