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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The London Riots: The Elephant in the Room

414 replies

smugaboo · 08/08/2011 23:19

I am probably being too quick off the mark in posting this as people are still digesting what is happening in London and Birmingham. I have seen references on here to police "shutting down the internet" and "shooting protesters" (rubber bullets, so that's okay). Let's hope that's the shock talking. But when the dust settles and people start analysing the root causes of the riots (i.e. social problems, poverty, unemployment, cultural concerns) one thing that will inevitably be overlooked, or at least not given enough attention, is the fact that this is gendered violence. It hardly needs to be said that very few women are involved in the actual rioting although I don't doubt that there are quite a number involved in looting. The same can be said in most similar situations anywhere in the world.

So I guess what I'm interested in exploring is whether or not this is actually gendered violence as such. Are the wives, mothers and sisters of the protestors sitting at home cheering them on? Is the only reason they don't join in fear for personal safety? Or do they feel fundamentally differently? I mean, would they ever be the ones to precipitate the violence? Do the males feel more disaffected - or are they actually more disaffected (I hardly think so!). Or, controversially, does this opportunity stir up some innate desire in males to simply be violent?

I've got to disappear but I'd love to hear what you think.

OP posts:
claig · 13/08/2011 12:04

Yes, immoral behaviour and corruption are endemic. But the problem we are discussing is the looting and arson in poor neighbourhoods by mainly young men and of all races in a copycat manner. Much of it was organised and was gang led. The majority of the violent looters, arsonists and gangsters don't watch the news and care about politics, but they watch the music videos and Hollywood movies. That's where they pick up the messages about gangsta lifestyle, guns and drugs.

Yes, there are corrupt politicians and bankers, but few of them carry out violent crime such as breaking the jaw of young Malaysian boys only in the country for 4 weeks, and then stealing from him while he was injured, dazed and confused.

claig · 13/08/2011 12:05

'im pissed off with people talking about good male rolemodels yet slagging single mothers.'

Who are these people?

swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 12:42

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swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 12:42

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swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 12:43

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claig · 13/08/2011 12:49

I have not slagged off single mothers.
But I have come to expect it from you to accuse me of that.

organicgardener · 13/08/2011 12:51

Even here people are playing the blame game Hmm

Cameron has attacked Mothers and Fathers further dividing and damaging the dynamic.

swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 12:54

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claig · 13/08/2011 13:05

No I don't think that any of those things are denigrating single mothers. They were all things quoted by youth workers on Radio 4. You seem to find many things offensive. I can't help that. It is for you to try and solve that. You have offended me by saying I am slagging off single mothers, but I don't ask for an apology from you, because I know that you will never apologise. You think you are right and everybody else is wrong. No views but yours are right.

I think you have misunderstood my words and have told you several times that I am not slagging off single mothers, but you persist in accusing me of that. I haven't done anything wrong by having a different opinion to you, so why should I apologise? If you are offended then you should look at yourself.

claig · 13/08/2011 13:21

Even Gordon Brown acknowledges the role of family breakdown.
I wasn't too keen on Gordon, he didn't offend me, but he obviously offended you.

"Government ministers reject the phrase 'Broken Britain' as glib jargon, but in his speeches Gordon Brown also acknowledges fears of growing family breakdown, parents who let their children run wild, binge-drinking, problem estates, town centres that have become no-go areas, and the unease felt by the "decent, hard-working majority" who "feel the odds are stacked in favour of a minority who will talk about their rights but never accept their responsibilities".

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/mar/31/is-britain-broken

Hagocrat · 13/08/2011 13:26

Yes, I find that rhetoric offensive. Ed Miliband does it as well, with his talk about 'grafters' (deserving poor) vs 'scroungers' (undeserving poor).

It's disgusting actually

swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 13:28

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claig · 13/08/2011 13:31

All the politicians, of all parties, say that and have done for decades. Think tanks have been reporting on the same thing for decades. Millions of people believe there is some truth in it and agree with the politicians and think tanks.

If you find it disgusting, then that is your view. But other people don't find it disgusting. Just because Gordon Brown believes that family breakdown is occurring and is a problem, doesn't mean that he slags off single mothers.

Hagocrat · 13/08/2011 13:33

But how is it possible as a feminist not to see through that rhetoric, to see how it misdirects attention and implicitly blames mothers?

Hagocrat · 13/08/2011 13:35

just because all the political parties have said it for a long time, that doesn't make it correct!

claig · 13/08/2011 13:35

You have made it personal, saf, by accusing me personally of slagging off single mothers. I have not slagged off single mothers and nor has Gordon Brown. I am offended that you have accused me of that. It is a shame that people can't discuss opinions held by youth workers interviewed on TV and Gordon Brown and just about every decision maker and think tank in the country without being accused of slagging off single mothers.

swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 13:35

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Hagocrat · 13/08/2011 13:35

and actually it's an idea that goes back hundreds of years, not just decades

swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 13:37

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claig · 13/08/2011 13:37

Hagocrat, I don't think it blames mothers. I think it blames absent fathers, who are feckless, irresponsible and do not provide the role model that they should be providing. I think those are the people that Gordon Brown is blaming, and on that issue I agree with him.

Hagocrat · 13/08/2011 13:37

Could it be that "youth workers interviewed on TV and Gordon Brown and just about every decision maker and think tank in the country" are mostly men?

Just sayin'

swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 13:38

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swallowedAfly · 13/08/2011 13:39

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claig · 13/08/2011 13:39

'what it essentially says is that society is built upon men owning their women and children in isolated units and keeping them dependent. outside of this is societies ruin.'

I don't think that is what Gordon Brown, Iain Duncan Smith, Cameron and all the rest are saying. I think they are saying that men have a duty and reponsibility to help to bring up their children.

Hagocrat · 13/08/2011 13:39

I agree with SAF. Implicit in that view is the idea that without A Man In Charge a family is dysfunctional.