Why are elderly women so ignored by society ...

[Winetta]

... when our own Queen is an elderly woman?!

It seems strange that the Queen can be so widely admired for her knowledge, wisdom, longevity, servitude yet older women as a general rule are so invisible and their brilliance overlooked.

Obviously I'm talking generally, but has anyone else thought this and what can we do to change this?!

TartyDoris: already remedied - HRP (or whatever it's called nowadays) provides NI credits to cover gaps for child-rearing (for all CB recipients until youngest child is 11, plus for recipients of other qualifying benefits).

The proposal to axe CB - with no word on replacement of HRP - is to me the epitome of the coalition not understanding the consequences of its actions. Why the hell should women (for it is usually women) have their long term pensions provision mucked around with just because they had a partner who was high earning for a while?

I believe Edith, from what I've read, that the plan would be to continue to pay CB to all to ensure that HRP is still retained, but then the CB would be clawed back from the higher rate tax payer via a tax code.

I suppose this would at least mean that the CB would go into the account of the person that was claiming it - the main purpose of CB in the first place was to give women some money of their own, since not all breadwinners were great at bringing home bread (preferring to spend it all in the pub).

Because women only have a very limited value in our society. As baby-makers and sex objects. Once you can't provide either service what use are you?

OK, I exaggerate a little but that's how I see it.

Organic: women are already having their pension age raised to parity.
Additionally, men can claim side benefits, like travel concessions, from the age at which a woman born the same year may claim them.

My pension age has gone up by 4 years in the past 12 months - very confusing (and requiring a rapid change of plan)! Assuming you're much younger, your pension provisions are the same for men and women.

I'm not clear on how Pension Credits are changing. Currently they tend to disadvantage women who have not worked full-time throughout their lives. Since many have been a SAHP for the majority of their marriage, they haven't been covered by full NI contributions and are significantly worse off.

Ormirian: In terms of social and professional value, I agree entirely with what you said.

Are any other 50+ women posting to this thread? I'm feeling quite strange about this conversation

Nobody can put their DNA in and get some DNA out. That's why.

suzikettles - I think it may well work like that.

Garlicbutter - see posts above - SAHPs are currently covered by CB which, as well as cash, brings an NI credit. There are no "gaps" now.

But the lack of clarity - at time of announcement and continuing - bespeaks, to me at least, a complete disregard for issues surrounding pensions (especially women's pensions), and is reversing the principle of independent taxation. It is however probably an effect (rather than a cause) of the marginalization of the elderly.

I think that women themselves are the worst offenders! Many time on AIBU you get some tale about what the 'old biddy' on the bus said. I have yet to see one where the age was any relevance whatsoever.
Generally it turns out to be a woman of 63yrs who probably runs marathons, skis down black runs, rides her horse daily and could certainly beat an overweight 20something year old in a race! (I know women in their 70s who can do all these things.)
I think that it is ageism in general that is depressing. There is a thread at the moment about 'an old man' and a security light-I still don't know why his age needs to come into it.

Glad to hear the gaps have been covered, Edith, thanks.

Money is obviously a big issue. But the OP was about perceived value: older women as a general rule are so invisible and their brilliance overlooked. I definitely agree with this but it's hard to discuss, somehow.

I have found that my values have self-adjusted somewhat as I've aged. Mine may have altered more than most - or I'm more aware of changes - because of all the therapy I've been doing for 10 years. I am 'invisible' and, in the day-to-day, I like it. I'm unconcerned about sags, wrinkles and lard. 90% of the artists on my playlist are dead - I care that they died so young, but not that I can't name many live ones. Peple have stopped asking me why I haven't got a partner. I am far braver in my choices, more cynical of other people's motives and more compassionate to troubled folk. I like all that.

I'm unemployable and I don't like that at all. I'm often ignored when I shouldn't be. People of both sexes assume I'm a bit stupid in ways they didn't, ten years ago. I've been poor before, but utterly confident in my ability to get rich again. I'm not at all confident I can this time, because of age prejudice which is very real. I've discussed this with my 54-year-old brother, also an achiever type, who finds that men (not just him) are able to convert a "past it" perception into "experienced" whereas women (not just me) can't - unless they'd reached an extremely high level of influence before 45. I've been told, countless times and in countless euphemisms, that I'm too old for the job.

Again, it's the business of women having to do so much more than men, simply to get a shot at parity. I do actually think this will have changed in 20 years' time but, like I said, I'm stormingly pissed off at being in the front line yet again. And it won't change as much as it needs to.

If I'm noticing all this at 56, fuck knows how bad it's going to be at 76. I have started collecting 60+ female role models, but wish I could find a few more who aren't wedded to Botox and surgery! Thank god for Greer

Agree exotic. Some MNers are utterly vile about old(er) women. I often wonder if it's fear.

BTW I am 46 so not a spring chicken. I have noticed that the ripple of interest that I created when i walked into a room (small at the best of times) has reduced to zero now.

at ripple of interest! I compensate by wearing painfully bright colours. Jenny Joseph had the right idea

Ormirian - I think it's fear as well.

I very much doubt that women in their sixties, seventies etc., who aren't as rich as men of the same age, are poorer because they haven't worked as much.

I suspect they've worked more. It's just that on the whole, their work has been unpaid, unrecognised and unvalued. Because it's been women's work.

Thinking 'out loud' here. If it's fear - fear of what? Of losing one's looks and therefore one's worth, perhaps? Is there a subliminal belief that "all women are prostitutes" to patriarchal eyes, and the pretty ones get the pay? Is that why the age-defying marketplace is so huge?

Fear of dependence? A thirty-something SAH woman can aim to get a job, post-divorce, but not a 60-something. She'd have to sue for her rights to a share of her husband's pension, if he has one.

Is there a fear of older womens' non-compliance with patriarchal values? With nothing to lose after the loss of 'erotic capital', you're free to do what you like and say what you think, even more so than being a scary feminist Does that threaten some women's whole concept of what being female means?

Dunno, just rambling.

Thinking about age-defiance: I kept an open mind on it until I started ageing for real. Then I realised that age-defiance doesn't work. You can get a smoother skin, a firmer jawline and a trim body but it won't make you 25 again. You will be a 60-year-old with weirdly taut skin and a good body. Your whole demeanour, the tone of your voice and the glint in your eye will be those of a woman who's lived more than twice as long.

Everybody who has Botox, collage, peels and lifts KNOWS that. I don't completely understand why they do it.

Disclaimer: I've just spent half an hour tweezing the bloody whiskers out of my face I'm not of the 'let it all hang out' school (though it would save a hell of a lot of time) but would not seek to alter my appearance. Or am I a hypocrite?

I think it's fear of losing their social status GB.

At a gut level, even women who aren't particularly interested in feminism, are well aware that losing their looks and getting old, will make them less welcome in the world. So they try their best to distance themselves from that unwelcome group.

Same reason some women are so anti single mothers, or some people hate unemployed people on benefits I guess - a fear that there but for the grace of god go I, so if I distance myself from it as far as possible, it will protect me from it.

Except of course, that as the only alternative to old age is death, it's a club they're going to have to join sooner or later...

I'm quite looking forward to it-I intend to have fun and grow old disgracefully. After a lifetime of being sensible, and worrying what others think, it will be a release.

garlic you sound fab!

It is a bit disconcerting when you walk into a room and people don't seem to see you. These are younger people, though, and maybe feel that an oldie has no relevance, like their parents, who are worthless scum. (Worn-down parent of twin teenagers. Sigh)

I wonder why old men are lavishly noticed whereas old females are ignored. Strange that. Then again it could be blatant sexism.

But why would females ignore old females?

I can't say that old men are lavishly noticed. I would say that the old are ignored in general. They are too slow-I have seen a thread on here saying why should the elderly shop at lunch time, they have all day and workers are in a hurry!!
Why can't the elderly be free to shop whenever they like?! Why do they have to suit those in paid employment? (I think that they are classed with SAHM here who are not supposed to shop at lunchtime either!)
Maybe the men appear to be noticed more because there are far less of them. (I am talking about the elderly- not 60/70yr olds)
I can't help thinking that this thread isn't about the elderly at all -but about the older woman.

The reason I think this- is the comment on old men being lavishly noticed-on reflection I think that it means 50/60/70 and I was assuming it to be 80+ where I really don't think they are lavishly noticed. I replied to quickly.

I think that ageism is the problem and the point at which you are called elderly.

I agree about the ageism thing on MN - how many times do you see, when someone is complaining about their MIL, the response 'it's a generational thing'
Most of the time, they don't even know how old the MIL in question is - it's just a general 'older woman=doesn't know what they're talking about' attitude, or the assumption that anyone over the age of about 50 is going to be racist, anti-breastfeeding, technophobic [insert prejudice of choice], with the patronising insinuation that they can't really help it, poor thing....

There are a few of us over 50's on here (I was 55 yesterday) -I just hope we don't all get siphoned off to Gransnet - I'm just waiting for the first time I get told, when complaining about ageism on MN "If you don't like it on here, why don't you fuck off to Gransnet..."

I feel the same RustyBear-being over 50. I know perfectly well that if I have an argument with a young mother when out and about I would be likely to end up on MN-I don't mind that at all since I would be in the right But I know that my age would come into it and it would be 'the old bat in the cafe', as if my age had any relevance to my behaviour or my views. The assumption would be that my age is the cause of it and you don't need to take any account because I am an old bat.
I think that MIL can be much younger in their thinking than some DIL! (certainly more flexible)

I think that there is rampant ageism on MN-probably the worst that comes to my notice.