Why don't Jewish women get told they are oppressed by their religion if they are 'encouraged' to shave their heads and wear a wig instead?

[Undefeated]

Just curious, but Muslim women are often told by society that by wearing scarves, niqabs, etc, they are being 'oppressed'- I'm torn on the issue, iI don't like to see it sometimes, but its their religion and their choice, unless they are under pressure to do so - which they may well be.

But (some) Hassidic Jewish women are required to shave their heads and wear a wig instead upon marriage... as well as wearing 'modest clothes - no short sleeves, neckbone must be covered - again, there may or may not be pressure to follow tradition, but I wonder why there is so much debate about the Muslim dress codes and so little about Jewish? Personally I'd rather wear a veil than have to cut off all my hair, it would be horrible to me!

I'd welcome views from anyone that does it, or knows someone who does - I only recently found out and was quite surprised - and it also made me think how unfair it is that so much attention is paid to what Muslim women wear, as if they are less able to decide for themselves. I put this is feminism because I think it's a feminist issue, please move if it doesn't belong here.

Actually not a patriarchy thing, rather a people thing.

If a woman has made an informed choice to cover her hair or body, and it is clear that many educated and intelligent women do make this choice then, surely, the insinuation that they are oppressed is rather insulting and the idea that they should be prevented from doing so is oppressive in itself.

I am not of a religion that requires this but would not deny anyone else the choice. I agree it is a people thing rather than a patriarchy thing. It is just as bad to have a feminist tell you that you should not cover your hair as to have a man tell you that you should.

" French ban on the veil because it basically prevents women with severely controlling husbands who require them to wear the veil in public from leaving their houses"

"Require them to wear the veil"? The state should not be in the business of enabling oppression.

"the idea that one woman can't access help because she can't go out covered frightens me"

That woman only needs to call 12 on her landline and police, social services, and others will come running. Not only for help but also to take away her husband.

No one ever goes on about Sikh men (and increasingly women) wearing turbans either.

I objected to the veil ban in France because it was a large group of men, the patriarchal state, telling women what they could and could not wear.
The majority of the less than 2000 veil wearers in France were converts who chose to cover. Sarkozy doesnt give a teeny shit about women (check his record) but a lot about making a political point by attacking one group which is currently viewed as 'the other'.

Anyway, thats straying slightly. The Jewish women I know who cover, whether it be wig, hat or headscarf (some haredi women also veil in Israel, a few hundred but its growing. The Israeli Govt is opposed) do it through choice for God, not for men. It enhances their spiritual life.

But to answer the actual question about why no-one tells jewish women they are oppressed would be, I guess, no one wants to be seen as anti-semitic/jewish. Being anti muslim in the media etc is fine and common but saying anything that might be vaguely anti jewish is a big no no.

Riven - you beat me to it! Agree - antisemitism is a bit unfashionable these days, whereas islamophobia is considered an acceptable expression of liberal values, particularly re. women and veils/niqabs/burkas.

"But to answer the actual question about why no-one tells jewish women they are oppressed would be, I guess, no one wants to be seen as anti-semitic/jewish. Being anti muslim in the media etc is fine and common but saying anything that might be vaguely anti jewish is a big no no."

I still think that the reaction is to full face covering - something which is (as far as I know) only done by some muslim women. People wearing hats or wigs or scarves and not cutting their hair or cutting all of it just don't illicit the same reaction as someone with a completely covered face, in our culture.

I think it's partially to do with full face coverings but also to do with the dichotomy between men and women's dress.

I always find it shocking to see a muslim man in shorts and t-shirt accompanied by a woman who is fully covered, especially in a hot country where I assume she must be quite uncomfortable with the heat. I don't feel so strongly if I see a man and woman who are both modestly dressed with a head covering (either hat, scarf or wig), as the look (and level of comfort) is similar for the man and woman.

IMO the 'oppressive to women' thing is often a stalking horse for more generalised fear of a different culture. Such communities of Orthodox Jews as exist in the UK have been here for a long time, don't evangelise, live fairly quietly, and (insofar as there are any militant Jewish sects at all) don't have much interest in blowing up the infrastructure of this country. So there's little or no generalised fear of Orthodox Jews, and hence little criticism of the Orthodox Jewish strictures that apply to women, oppressive or not.

SGM there was the exact same thing here about Sikh police officers and the police helmet, years ago, I remember it well.

Manatee I think that is a definite point about the difference in perception. The perception in the area where I live that Jewish people are attacked rather than attacking is definitely true - as there have been some high profile incidents and lots of smaller ones that are reported in the papers. eg when I was younger a Jewish organisation was bombed, there have been schoolchildren abused on buses, areas associated with large Jewish communities get stuff done like swastikas daubed on the public facilities... One of our local synagogues now has a security guard on the door, something they had to start a few years back. So people definitely think of the Jewish community as under attack rather than attacking.

To a non-Muslim covering your face or wearing a shapeless black cover-all robs the wearer of their individual identity. It is also inextricably linked with people who choose to conceal their identity because they are doing something bad, eg executioner or thief.

Obviously, religious Muslim women cover for a completely different reason!

But that, I think, is partly why there is such a difference in attitudes to Muslim and Jewish ideas of modesty - Jews show their faces, as well as a degree of individuality in the clothes. It is unthreatening.

As for Islamophobia being more acceptable than anti-semetism - nonsense! 20 years ago most people weren't particularly bothered by the obviously Muslim or Jewish people. When racists wanted to play they attacked both groups. In my limited experience in NW London and E London, Jews and Jewish establishments were more likely to be attacked, though I accept it might have been different in other places.

What changed? What made Islamophobia more common? Have you noticed perhaps that several times in the last decade violent attacks have been carried out against the predominantly non-Muslim western world by people who claim to represent Islam?

I don't know what you're talking about and i've known a few jewish women, so this must be far far rarer amonst jewish women than veil-wearing is amongst muslim women.

the wigs? I suppose if they are good ones you cant actually tell.

I think it is pretty rare bandwithering, or at least in the circles I move in. I haven't known any Jewish women who shaved their head or wore wigs, or even covered their hair when out and about. When I've seen Hasidic Jews out and about it's usually in family groups and so it is quite obvious that they belong to that branch IYSWIM but I haven't studied the women's hair that closely! I knew that they shaved their heads and wore wigs though but as Karma mentions the hair and dress code for the men is very strict and "stands out" as well probably more so than the women.

I guess the point is that in Judaism in the UK, the women who shave their heads and wear wigs are probably about as common as Muslim women who entirely cover their faces ie not that common.

This thread has reminded me of the movie Arranged. It's a lovely little US indie film about a Muslim woman and an Orthodox Jewish woman in Brooklyn who become friends as they both go through the process of an arranged marriage. It explores a lot of issues around being a modern woman within a really traditional community. www.arrangedthemovie.com

Sounds and interesing film. Is it on dvd?

Riven yes. You can also see it through Lovefilm.

I think marriage is oppressive full stop.

In that context shaving your head is neither here nor there.

Interesting though that the Jewish practice is connected to whether a the woman is married or not, but a muslim woman doesn't change her dress code specifically for marriage.

I suppose a muslim woman retains more of a sense of her pre-married "self" than a woman who shaves her head.
Jewish women are not the only women who shave their heads for marriage when they marry, some African tribal women do it too.

As someone upthread said I think the distinction between face covering, and any other religious costume is relevant.

I think there is also the sense that face veil wearing is on the rise amongst people where it isn't part of their tradition - e.g. British born Bangladeshi and Somali women, and converts deciding to wear the niqab, in a punk rock gesture. Whereas judaism is not a evangelising religion, and I guess most wig wearing women come from families and communities where that is what women do.

Can this just be clarified?!

'Jewish women' do not shave their heads when they get married.

One particular sect does this, and very few of the women actually shave completely. Mostly they choose to crop their hair into a very short style. In this sect both men and women stick to modest dress codes and cover their heads. The men also keep their hair cut very short.

In this respect (clothing and hair) the men and women are treated equally.

"The men also keep their hair cut very short. "

Yea, but the men are not entering a patriarchally legitimated state of oppression, the way women are when they marry. Saying "men cut their hair too" is like comparing apples and pairs.

Irrelevant. The discussion is not whether marriage oppresses women, but why a specific custom in a subsection of Jews is not considered to oppress the women who practice it, whereas a similar custom among Muslim women is considered to oppress them.