Why don't Jewish women get told they are oppressed by their religion if they are 'encouraged' to shave their heads and wear a wig instead?

[Undefeated]

Just curious, but Muslim women are often told by society that by wearing scarves, niqabs, etc, they are being 'oppressed'- I'm torn on the issue, iI don't like to see it sometimes, but its their religion and their choice, unless they are under pressure to do so - which they may well be.

But (some) Hassidic Jewish women are required to shave their heads and wear a wig instead upon marriage... as well as wearing 'modest clothes - no short sleeves, neckbone must be covered - again, there may or may not be pressure to follow tradition, but I wonder why there is so much debate about the Muslim dress codes and so little about Jewish? Personally I'd rather wear a veil than have to cut off all my hair, it would be horrible to me!

I'd welcome views from anyone that does it, or knows someone who does - I only recently found out and was quite surprised - and it also made me think how unfair it is that so much attention is paid to what Muslim women wear, as if they are less able to decide for themselves. I put this is feminism because I think it's a feminist issue, please move if it doesn't belong here.

Hmm that last post may be dodgy. I know the Jewish communities have been here for a hell of a long time, I know that some muslims have been here for ages obviously, but I have a feeling that there have been more recent muslim arrivals. However, I'm not basing that on much as I know more about the Jewish and Christian communities than the Muslim ones IYSWIM.

Where I live, there is a Christian sect called the Plymouth Brethren and the women in that sect don't cut their hair, wear a little headscarf, long sleeves and long skirts (never trousers).

I'm told they are not allowed to work - I've certainly never seen anyone dressed as they do working in a shop/hospital/hairdressers/garage, etc.

Plymouth Brethren men seems to have no limitations on their dress or hairstyles

So, anyway, it's not just Islam and Judaism that expect certain things of women's apperances.

The women in the Hasidic community near here don't dress like the woman in that picture - not in public anyway. They dress in black from head to toe.

Or dark at least

It's usually the men and children who I see out and about TBH

kicking our local christian sect are a breakaway from the Plymouth Brethren - apparently they left because the Plymouth Brethren weren't strict enough

The men always have short hair - same length all over and wear stripy shirts

The not cutting hair and wearing headscarves extends to little girls - they have the very long hair and the scarf from tiny, it seems. So that is more extreme that most muslim hair-covering - where (as I understand it) the hair covering starts at puberty.

The (presumably) Hassidic women I see do tend to dress in dark clothes (although not necessarily black), long skirts, collars done up to the neck etc.

The school girls all go to the normal school, but wear their skirts ankle length and have long sleeves (no head covering/wigs until married as Pretty says)

I think it is because the codes are just as strict for the men that I find it less objectionable (ie. it's oppressive to all, not just to women) than other strict religious codes. Although I don't know anything about any other restrictions placed apon them.

The Hassidic Jewish community in any country, even in Israel isn't generally popular.

The insular nature of the community is such that it does suffer substantially from health problems - a basic problem with the gene pool due to the unwillingness to allow outsiders into the community.

The real dislike though comes from Israeli (called Hareidis) Hassidic's unwillingness to take-up military service, and in a country where time in military service is likely to see at least one conflict, that counts for a lot of lack-of-respect.

It isn't easy to link a modern Orthodox Jew with a Hassidic Jew; they have virtually no grounds to agree on.

Covering hair has a whole range of issues behind it these days within Judaism. This article, from a Jewish website, explains the background and current issues within the community well for those who are interested. I personally cover my hair with a snood/tichel/cloth rather than wig as the cost of a decent wig and to keep them properly maintained isn't feasible and part of my joy in head covering is not having to worry about my hair outside my home. I have gotten quite a few remarks about being oppressed that my wig head covering friends do not get, but none of those who made such comments knew what I was, they just assumed headcovering = oppressed. Wigs allow them to blend-in as most don't look to closely which was the main reason they became popular in the first place.

The shaving head issue is very rare - I know of no women who do so these days (and Orthodoxs and Chasids are pretty much the only Jews I know well enough to know as "Progressive"/Reform are pretty much against Noahides like myself). It was more common in days gone by when wigs were harder to fit nicely if you had still had hair, and as many women wear them to feel more attractive or blend in to larger society as described here so in some smaller communities, particularly Haredi which follows tradition very tightly, it still continies. As said in both articles, taking on this mitzvah is seen as very personal these days among most women (I didn't take it on until I was married for a few years, and mostly for convenience at first. Now it's just a part of who I am as a person and as a woman, and I would frankly feel very naked and exposed without it). Each mitzvah is a choice, but this one is specifically seen these days by the younger community, in my opinion, as a form of self-expression that women choose. Men are far more pushed to dress in traditional form than women are with Judaism, in my experience.

I do agree with what others have said - men in these communities often stick out way more than women, even those who cover their hair with cloth rather wigs, as they follow traditional wear, and so much of the flack against the Jewish community is aimed at them. If you see a news article about the community, the cameras always focus on the men and boys with peyos as they are pretty much symbols where as we women blend in far more much like with stories on Muslims seem to have far more setting up images of women in head scarves than men (and the men will mostly be those traditionally dressed than those in "modern" clothes). So people focus on the weird to them bit and don't see the less weird to them bit.

Jewish rules make it far less obvious - there was a girl on my course at uni who I just thought was very smart because she always wore nice long skirts and I never saw her in jeans. It was ages before I worked out she was Orthodox Jewish, unlike the Muslim girls who covered their heads or wore long robes.

Now I know what the rules are, I do notice a lot more Orthodox Jewish people though

A large section of my extended family is Hasidic, and I can assure you that the women do not dress head to toe in black. Looking elegant and attractive are just as important to them as to any secular woman.

As for seeing married women covering their heads, that would depend upon where you are. I have seen plenty - including myself when I pray, and I don't cover otherwise - having grown up in NW London.

i've never seen a hassidic jew in scotland.. ever.. i didn't know they existed till i moved to london [ignorant]

There is a difference between covering your hair for prayer and covering it all the time.

I don't know what the married Jewish women I have known do at prayer. I do know that they do not cover their hair for daily life / work / all that stuff.

What I am getting at is that the idea that many Jewish women cover their hair as a general code of dress is not the case across the board.

Here the girls in the Plymouth Brethern start wearing the little headscarf at maybe 10? They all have the very long hair though.

Mysteriously, I have never seen a PB church or meeting house anywhere - I wonder where they gather to worship or whatever?

In several years teaching, I've never taught a PB child. I suppose they must home-ed.

a niqab takes away a womens identity in public, hides a women away a wig does not do this

all religions oppress women

kicking the people we have around here are Exclusive Brethren. The places where they worship don't have any windows (at least the 2 I know about so I assume it's a "thing" as it's quite unusual to build a building with no windows otherwise IYSWIM). Always reminded me of The Twits! Anyway - the children go into mainstream schools but as they are not allowed to use computers or watch TV or listen to the radio it must be tricky. I know that when I was at school there was a big thing about it as they wanted dispensation to opt out of the part of the national curriculum that involved newspapers and they won their case.

I think that they tend to work together as well rather than "mixing" and you're not allowed to join (and big problems if you leave).

They'd be screwed at school these days - interactive whiteboards for everything, and lots of interactive teaching programmes and BBC class clips to watch on them!

I wasn't at school with any PB kids either, so I'm really thinking they must home-ed.

It's quite strange that I know so little about them, they are well known around here and I've lived here nearly all my life!

Yes I wonder how they manage. Everything is computers and on-line these days. I wonder if they home-ed now, as you say. I imagine there will be a "free school" set up for them - they had a big new church built a while back, and there seems to be some money there IYSWIM, and enough people to make a school.

I might have a little google, it's interesting isn't it!

I'm planning to google later!

Partly I'm just nosey, but I feel quite ignorant that I've lived in the same city as this religous group most of my life and don't know any more than that 'the women wear headscarves and don't cut their hair'

Thinking about it, I haven't noticed girls with headscarves on going to our local girls secondary school, like they did when I was young.

So yes I think they have probably had to withdraw from mainstream schooling now.

Several of my jewish friends cover with a scarf but they wear it differently so they dont get mistaken for muslim women. They say wigs are hot and a bit of a get out clause.

"I'm an atheist so I find all organised religions oppressive and offensive!"

I am a Christain and don't feel oppressed in any way. I do what I want.

D'oh! Christian not Christain

Same here bunbaker. Im muslim and have never felt oppressed. Well, apart from the general UK patriarchy thing.

I think it's the patriarchy thing that is primary in oppressing Women and people in general. Some people seek power and to oppress others for their own ends, religion is just a tool, if the whole world was suddenly atheist, oppression would not end.