"ask what you think are silly Qs here and forkful will try to answer them in a polite helpful way by directing you to the resources she found useful and try to use persuasive arguments and

[forkful]

if anyone feels scared just shout" THREAD

Sparked from the 700+ post thread. Honestly where is that thread going now . The people who hate women will be loving that thread.

Lots of posters don't want to explain Feminist thinking all the time (fair enough - I don't always - but I try to provide useful links and book recommendations and write wordy posts trying to explain my point of view when I have the time/inclination).

So to all those who are scared/lurking - come and ask some questions!

i don't mind looking at mine Sybil, but on a shared 'puter I think i may get more than a few s if i uploaded pics for you all

They didn't have that problem in the 70's.

thanks everyone for your comments, really helpful and ..... nice! Yay.

So, I AM a borderline feminisit. I am pleased!

My finail two questions, and then my transformation (and I hope I do transfrom) is complete. Again, I have held off posting these questions as they are my gut feeling ... I have looked into the theory and am still non the wiser. So, my questions for a bonus £100 are:

1. Can I be a feminist if I am supportive of transgender individuals?
2. Can I be a feminist if I believe in a system of patriarchIES, rather the the patriarchy?

Whatever the outcome, I want to thank OP for her post as never in a million years did I feel this would be an environment I could ask these questions.

on the first one, firstly feminists who on the anti- side rather than the pro-side of the trans debate would say that they are not anti- the individuals, just certain elements of the activism and in particular the belief that trans women are women. And secondly, although it is a huge issue that splits feminists very deeply, I don't think the anti- side are saying that the pro-side aren't feminists, just that they're mistaken about something very fundamental.

I don't know about 'patriarchies' rather than 'patriarchy', I haven't come across that debate, but I don't see why it would be a deal-breaker.

I think you are a feminist. There's quite a strong radical feminist group on here (whether a majority or a vocal minority I'm not sure) of which I'm happy to be a part, and if you find yourself constantly disagreeing with what everyone else in this topic seems to think it might just be that you occupy a different space on the feminist spectrum. But I don't think rad fems would ever claim we speak for the whole of feminism, and I hope we're not giving people that impression (though perhaps we are).

The thread about where people are on a sliding scale of feminism is quite good for seeing the diversity which can exist and among people who are still all feminists.

Thank you again for your reply :)

So ... It appears I am a feminist.

Toddler, could you elaborate on the 'patriarchies' bit please? Do you mean that there are myriad personal experiences of the patriarchy (as in, from individual women) or do you mean that there are intersecting effects of the patriarchy? If it's the latter you might try googling 'intersectionality' and 'kyriarchy'. I don't know if I subscribe fully to these ideas but I find their idea of 'privilege' hugely enlightening - it's the idea that sexism, racism, etc require ACTIONS, while privilege is something that we all have and might not know. So as a straight white woman who is virulently anti-racism, I would never dream of saying or doing something racist - equally, however, I might think that make-up companies offering one shade of foundation that vaguely might be useful for black skin is enough. It's not my skin colour, it's not my issue, because of my white privilege.

The whole 'multiple experience' thing sort-of informs my views on transsexuality. I must admit, I don't hold much respect for the views of the antis - but then, I wasn't aware of the activism that Sybil mentions until I came on this board, and when I learned about that I understood where they were coming from a lot more. However, I do think that trans-women are women - in my heart of hearts, I just don't believe that a trans-woman is a man hoping to traumatise women. They take too much shit for their choice - even higher rates of murder, assault, sex work and rape than 'born' women - for me to believe that that is the case.

Transsexuality is a truly huge issue. I have a friend who is passionately anti-trans because she thinks that all surgery does is reinforce the binary system of gender - MAN and WOMAN. She doesn't think that individuals should have to 'mutilate' (her words) themselves in order for them to live the life of another gender. She thinks that gender and sex should be radically divorced just as Simone de Beauvoir said all those years ago.

However, 'privilege' kicks in again and I just don't think that, as a straight woman whose gender perception corresponds with her sex (American blogs call this 'cis-gendered', as in the opposite of 'trans-gendered') I have the right to tell a trans-woman what her motives are and how her life is.

'if we were proper feminists, like in the 70s, we would all be taking photos of our vulvas and uploading them, like those consciousness-raising groups where feminists used to take mirrors and sit round in a circle getting in touch with their genitals.'

We didn't all do that you know.
Some of us did it in private and then discussed what we'd discovered later in a group.

is that true?fanny gazing as opposed to navel gazing

A friend told me about her friend, who in the 70s informed her doctor that her feminist group had ordered specula by mail order and had been examining themselves.

At which point the doctor, eyes popping in outrage, cried 'but my good WOMAN, anything you place in your vagina must be THOROUGHLY BOILED!'

When asked about her husband's penis, he subsided somewhat...

Don't know how old you are sm, but it was part of a movement in the 70s to get used to the fact that you had girlie bits and a clitoris and that they should be something you recognised and appreciated, rather than shuddering and going 'euwww'
So yes, mirrors and talking and asking questions and comparing. Although my friends and I never got as far as mirrors and mates in the same room.

most enlightening.not sure id do it though

Having just found out that there are separatist feminists-how do they cope with having DSs?

I can't speak from experience, but older friends have said - when asked whyyyyyy did you dooooo such a thing?!?! from cringing wimpy younger feminists like me - that it was a revolt against the medical profession who were nearly all men and were very keen on telling women what their bodies were doing, and what they should be doing with their vaginas, and how the Medicine Men held the Key to the Vagina.

Actually, sez 70s feminists, we actually have vaginas and all the other female plumbing, and we're perfectly capable of doing it ourselves. I'm very grateful to those feminists for helping to bring about the medical service we have now.

It's surprising what you do at 18 when you've been brought up with a very traditional view of how women, 'women's troubles' and sex are taboo subjects for general discussion.
Then you find some friends who are less conventional and...

No, I'm more into examining the hard skin and hairiness of my feet. That's more than enough excitement for me

Also remember, no google, few images available to the general public, no TV or magazine articles covering those sorts of topics.
So what's a curious girl to do?

Oh, I've done it myself, and a drunken night saw about five of us pack an unenlightened friend into the toilet with a hand mirror. But doing it as a life-affirming-women's-togetherness thing? Theoretically I'm all for it, and yet....

Now I know no one has thus far asked what a MRA (Men's Right Activist/Advocate) is; but it is a common query

So, when they do I have just found the following site that has a very good description indeed.

goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/meet-the-mens-rights-movement/

It also has lots of articles debating, recognising and occasionally debunking their ideas. Most of the debunking involves pointing out that they want is actually just the same as what feminists do. It's quite enlightening: see for example

goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/how-the-mens-rights-activists-get-feminism-wrong/

and

goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/solution-mra-problems-more-feminism/

The converts links automatically button obviously is part of a broad patriachal conspiracy here . It does not want to work for me. So again with square brackets are:

goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/meet-the-mens-rights-movement/

goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/solution-mra-problems-more-feminism/

goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/how-the-mens-rights-activists-get-feminism-wrong/

Exoticfruits - I don't know; there aren't any on here and I've never met one, presumably because they're all off being separate. Do they still exist? Do they live on a remote Scottish island somewhere? We could organise an expedition

Sakura is one-which is why I had no understanding. I'm not one, but as I have 3 adorable DSs I don't know how it would work.

one what?sorry dont follow

is she really? you must have been on different threads with her to the ones I have.

My question from earlier that Sybil answered. (22.12.01)