"ask what you think are silly Qs here and forkful will try to answer them in a polite helpful way by directing you to the resources she found useful and try to use persuasive arguments and

[forkful]

if anyone feels scared just shout" THREAD

Sparked from the 700+ post thread. Honestly where is that thread going now . The people who hate women will be loving that thread.

Lots of posters don't want to explain Feminist thinking all the time (fair enough - I don't always - but I try to provide useful links and book recommendations and write wordy posts trying to explain my point of view when I have the time/inclination).

So to all those who are scared/lurking - come and ask some questions!

SnapesonAPlane - The Equality Illusion was mentioned upthread is quite good. Cordelia Fine's delusions of gender is another good one - especially if you have children.

Germain Greer - The Whole Woman is another.

Toddlerwrangler I think choice-feminism is a bit maligned because it can be used to justify all sorts of largely harmful practices. ie while lot of people do choose to be prostitutes, for example, it's used to close down debate about prostitution, and all the harm it does in general. Also it ignores the context in which these choices are made. Why do men think it's ok to buy access to another humans body, that wouldn't be freely given. Or why doesn't she have access to a decent school hours job, etc. what happened to the womn to make her think that her body is her principle asset, and how does that fit in to societies view of women as bodies first, then people. Also just because a woman makes a choice that benefits her personally, it may not be a particularly feminist choice in the wider societal implications do harm to women.

I think a lot of the confusion/upset about choice feminism comes from the deeper feminist analysis of choice, and wht most people men when they use it ie the choice to SAHM/WOHM, sleep with him or not, that sort of thing.

HTH and it's taken so long to type (badly) that probably someone far more articulate and knowledgable than me has explained better.

ComradeJig I second what Victor says. It's when a beauty procedure becomes burdensome or unhealthy that you have to start questioning why it's only women that have to do it and not men. For me, it's high heels - they're so uncomfortable and I'd much rather run about in trainers.

Toddler - sorry but do you mean pro-life? I thought pro-choice (ie. right to abortion) was the common feminist stance? If you mean pro-life then my own personal answer would be it's fine to be personally opposed to abortion as long as you don't judge others who have had an abortion or try to deny the rights of other women to have one. When you look back in history female reproductive rights have been one of the biggest leap forwards for feminism because it has literally changed womens' lives and opened up so many opportunities. Biology is no longer destiny. (well not quite so much anyway!!)

I don't think it's about choice - sometimes it gets reduced to choice as if any action that you have chosen to do is a feminist action - but I think choice is sort of an important tool within it.

For me, feminism is a political movement for women's equality. Some actions will have results that promote equality, others won't, so some things will be more feminist than others. And feminism is also about understanding the contexts in which those choices are made; eg if a woman has to conform to a dress code involving make up and heels or get sacked, that's not the same as her having the freedom to wear what she likes, even if no-one is physically holding her down and forcing the lipstick on her.

But firstly, no-one can do feminist actions all the time, and secondly only you understand the precise circumstances of your life so no-one else can second-guess the results of your actions for you Eg if someone says 'Go out to work! Jobs are better for women than SAHMing!' you might know that in fact you would be far better off as a SAHM.'

not sure I'm being very clear here, sorry, I can't quite frame what I'm trying to say.
In short: Feminism is about much more than choice, but not telling women what to do is important.

(phew, Victor has said what I want to say much more clearly and pithily!)

ha ha - i see I was the one who got it wrong - still I had fun talking to myself about abortion - LOL!!

Ooh good article.

I do tell dd she is beautiful. But I also ask her what she thinks about things, tell her how I enjoy talking with her, get her to expand on a view she has about something - like why bollocks is just a good word when you drop something - and all that stuff.
She like myths and legends, history and in particular the Romans.
When my mum asked what she would like for her birthday I suggested a book about Greeks, Aztecs or Romans.............. " how about I get her a nice little handbag" she said.
Fortunately she likes handbags too.

my prochoice stance links mostly to working in the sex industry

:)

Sorry -- elephants link was the one I was blithering on about

I really like Living Dolls by Natasha Walter. She does a really good job of explaining choice feminism with regards to women's sexuality.

Sybil - I thought yours was better!

Don't hide behind the sofa! That's where the monsters wait!

sorry, yes about womens choice and feminism...i was going to add unless it was detrimental to women or objectified them but my mother made a surprise visit and i pressed post before i previewed

toddler - again it goes back to how much of the choice is free choice. I have the fortune of being able to earn a lot more/safer money that entering the sex industry. I tend to think that most people given the choice of what I do or working in the sex industry would do what I do. Its safe, flexible, fairly high status, well paid and rewarding. However, the vast majority of women in the sex industry do not have the advantage of that choice, it is the sex industry or nothing in a lot of cases or some lower paid job. Is that real choice?

I am sure other people can explain it more clearly than that!

I think you can ToddlerWrangler. There is nothing in that POV that conflicts with the fundamental principles of feminism as being about women's equality, any disagreements are surely more pragmatic ones about how the sex industry could possibly be beneficial rather than harmful to women in the context of the patriarchy as it stands (ie anti sex industry people would say it can't, pro sex industry people would say it can).
anyway, SolidGoldBrass would agree with you and she is definitely a feminist.

I have a question that leads on from the smear test thread...

Why do women have such a hang up about their vagina? And why do women see sex as such 'head' thing instead of a body function? I feel that my vagina is no different to any other part of my body and sex is just a pleasurable activity - if more women thought that way, wouldn't many issues women have be easier? Men don't have the same issues - they always want to show off their penis's but we women even shy away from showing a medical professional. Why do we do this? Is this even a feminist issue?

I think society as a whole has a problem with vaginas. In their natural state they're barely seen, to the point that some people think they look revolting.

that's a really interesting question MsC. I don't know.
I wonder if it is partly to do with inherited taboos against women's sexuality, and also partly to do with the fact that your vagina is the bit through which you get pregnant, which is one of the riskiest things you can do, so you have a sort of instinctive need to protect it.

and perhaps that sexuality and menstruation was very much used against women in witch hunts around 16th/17th century?

Now this is a good thread. No fighting. Hurrah!

MsC: I definitely think it is a feminist issue. I'm glad you don't have any hang ups about your vagina, I try not to either but not always with success (although in my case this may have something to do with abuse suffered).

I would second what Sybil says about it being society which has this problem -and educates us to have it in consequence. I think it is evident if you think about how easy it is to refer to a penis as a "willy"; how this word is common parlance etc. There is no such term to refer to the vagina: instead there are lots of different ones and sometimes a general unwillingness to mention it at all. (My mum for one never uttered the word to me).

The same extends to periods. Did you see the thread about the regulators not alllowing adverts showing tampons and the like during children's viewing hours? Again ancedotely, in my house, menstrual cramps were called "tummy ache" in a bid to relocate the pain from the reproductive organs to the neutral stomach.

And then of course, historically, menustrating women have been a taboo; the loosing of blood was considered (and perhaps culturally still is in some sense) dirty even shameful.

Re the vulva/vagina stuff, I think the general messages from society are also articulated by abusive partners, so for some women the two things go hand in hand. If you're told that part of you is ugly, smells, detached from it through sexual practices and made to feel ashamed for your sexuality then you internalise it.

And then it gets backed up by society, so you have labiaplasty for the ugliness, 'intimate feminine products' and hair removal for the smell, porn/lad's mags/adverts for the detachment etc.

And then you're told this stuff shouldn't be a problem, we're all the same, they're just doctors, don't be a prude etc which then doesn't give space to explore those feelings.

Totally a feminist issue.

Just to add, someone posted some cervix pictures on another thread, and that was the first time in my entire life that I thought, 'you know what, it's just a bit of a body'.

if we were proper feminists, like in the 70s, we would all be taking photos of our vulvas and uploading them, like those consciousness-raising groups where feminists used to take mirrors and sit round in a circle getting in touch with their genitals.
(That wouldn't put off newbies would it?)

[crosses Sybil off list for speculum party]