Pornography vs. erotic fantasy

[mumwithdice]

Right, now, this may have been done before and if it has, please point me to the thread plus apologies for rehashing.

I was reading Caitlin Moran's book and her objection was that there isn't enough pornography for a female audience or something like that. When I read what she actually wanted, people making love, I thought a) there's plenty of that in Mills and Boon or any fanfiction/fanart (she mentions Aslan) and b) that's not pornography, that's erotic fantasy.

Given that I think Caitlin Moran is a relatively intelligent woman, I started to wonder if (and I really really hope this doesn't come across as patronising; if it does, I apologise) people who accuse those of us against pornography of being prudish humbugs have made the same mistake of confusing pornography with erotic fantasy. Thus they think that when we are anti-pornography we are anti any sexual fantasies and this is where the accusations of prudery come in.

Is this a possibility?

Oh yes, good erotic fiction is all about the build up. When the author makes you wait for ages.

You just don't get that on film, because that's not seen as the 'point' of porn.

Not sure what you mean SinicalSal?

I am slightly scared to be in feminism, so glad I'm not on my own so far!

It's in Still Life LRD - I've forgotten the names of the characters now so I'm afraid you'll have to reread the whole thing

Sinical - yes, I think so. I think this is why erotic writing can be just as crap as visual porn, because it can give no voice to the woman. I remember reading about that hoax blogger who pretended to be a lesbian, that some people thought what he did was buying into the exploitative 'exotic women' erotica because he insisted that his little stories were good substitutes for real women's voices.

Thanks mooncup.

Right then, that's me done for the night, see you all tomorrow.

No.

Sorry, bleeeeeuggh at the idea of 'sexy' A S Byatt novels!

I would agree that erotic fiction can easily be as crap as visual porn. Especially if you use the chance to have a female voice and have them think a load of complete nonsense.

I can't think of it ever being worse though.

I was ages trying to articulate my point above, but am really not very clearheaded at the mo, so I just strung some words together and hoped someone would grasp it.

I think what I mean is, erotica is about people and porn is about genitals.

Still not clear...

Oh, yes, hadn't thought of that LaW but you're right.

Someone I know was reading some crappy self-help book that claimed all women when not 'brainwashed by our society's feminist agenda' (snort) dream of a manly man who can rescue them ... I think maybe Mills & Boon have something to answer for here!

Oh Oh I think I know the AS Byatt sex bit - the last bit of Possession where he finally possesses the self possessed Maud.

She came at dawn, as I recall

Cross-post ... actually, I like that formulation, it makes sense to me.

Maud scares the fuck out of me, I think she's my supervisor fictionalized. No thanks, not sexy.

Sinical, yes, exactly. A kiss can be incredibly sexy between characters that you care about.

LRD, did you ever come across Leather Pants!Draco?

Some fanfic is crap?! Overwhelmingly most of it is dire. But the really good stuff is exquisite.

That some should be in italics

mumwith that is FOUL.

I'm reporting your post to MN for vile obscenity now and I have no doubts as to their response ...

bella - true. I know someone who started out writing fanfic and is now published. Ok, Dh knows her. But it is rather exciting.

I have a Harry/Draco novel bookmarked on Delicious, but luckily he doesn't wear leather pants. I blame the author, if she didn't write such fantastic other pairings I'd have never have tried that one...

I only read fanfic 'erotic fiction' and although amongst ourselves we joke about it being porn, in many cases it isn't. Some of the most erotic stories I read have 'faded to black' as they've got into really hard core scenes. Even with the most graphic PWP (porn without plot, although there's other interpretations I believe) there's an underlying relationship. You can write fic like that because the reader knows the fanon/canon/back story. It will never be two random nameless strangers bumping uglies, it will always have more depth than that. Personally (and that's important I think - your kink is not my kink and all that) if I don't care about a character I have no interest in reading about their sex lives, no matter how well written.

Yes that's true. I think fanfiction is extremely special in a lot of ways, the same way everyone knowing the characters makes it easier to write also means that even when you write a PWP out of canon it still comes with built in context for the readers who know what the characters perosnalities are like.

Although I think I may need to start reading stories without anyone called Edward or Bella at some point in my life

i think that's what I mean about objectification LaWeasley. In ordinary porn you have no idea about the people involved. Just that she's blonde with big tits or whatever. Nor is there much attention given to her feelings, just actions. You can't really get more dehumanised than that.

LRD, sorry, just realised that it should be Leather Trousers!Draco. Read of this when I was still in the States so pants are trousers there. I was born there so I still slip sometimes. Again, sorry for the mental image.

Sinical, yes, that's exactly it.

mumwithdic thanks for posting the quotes. It's quite interesting to read. I don't know what she wrote before and after those quotes, but that's quite different from the 'pro-porn' label she's been tagged with I agree.

I always find myself in a dilemma with issues around erotic literature and the like. I accept that as there are no real people involved there are no victims as such, but I still feel that they contribute to an overall objectification of women and that they uphold an ideal about sex - THIS is what good sex is like etc - IYSWIM.

However, what can be done about it? Even though I want to see lots of things in life stopped - e.g. porn, pornpop music videos, rants against immigrants and women in the tabloids etc - I am generally against censorship because I really dislike the idea of any government deciding what is 'good' for us as if we are naughty children.

In my ideal world I guess we'd have much more discussion about these issues and how they contribute to social problems so that the demand for these things was lessened and they disappeared. We're a long way off that though - in fact they are becoming more pervasive in society - so maybe we also need to discourage them as much as ignore them. Dunno really. Still thinking about it.

And LeatherTrousersDraco is just sick!

I agree sunshine
We're all so very non judgemental nowadays - good - but it leads to moral relativism. It's plain to see on the other thread about the 12 year olds who were raped, where it's seen as normal for preteens to meet men in parks for gangbangs Cos you know, some people like that, and hey who am I to judge? (Except in this case that's the view espoused by the actual judge)
Maybe it's time to bring back the taboo? (Can't believe I said that. someone prove me wrong please...)

Oh FFS! If you are going to whine about erotic fiction describing Bad Things then you might as well just fuck off over to join the corpse of Mary Whitehouse and Ban All Fiction NOW!
I appreciate the ethical objection to the coercion of performers in visual porn/erotica, but when there are shelves and shelves of fiction describing all sorts of horrible things happening to women/men/children/animals that are quite openly sold and openly discussed and reviewed but are labelled as literature/horror/sci-fi/thrillers, and everyone understands that they are fiction and their authors not threats to the public, those who get their actual sticky jollies from evisceration or dismemberment will have plenty to wank over anyway.

And anyone who bleats and whines about Bad Stuff in specifically erotic fiction as a reason to ban all erotic material is someone who is clearly demonstrating that yes, actually, for all the rhetoric, you are a prude and you do have a problem and a lot of issues around sex.