The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

[DontCallMePeanut]

From The Telegraph

Sorry, my head's not in the right place to provide any critique of this at the moment, but thought this would interest the members of the feminist section. Will attempt to comment when I have a clearer head.

"We all know how to do signs of non-verbal consent"

I was asked to specifically give examples, to prove they exist. So apparently not.

MarySue I have had problems my entire life interpreting people's emotions, reactions and expressions, I have been told many times by many people that I stand up for myself when I don't need to or tell people to forcefully to go away. I consider myself to be the least 'forceful' person on this board, yet I'm told I'm agressive (I've even been called an agressive bitch)when I try to tell people I don't want to do something or want someone to go away. I observe women being over-ridden by men in conversations and in life in general and then getting slapped down (sometimes literally) when they try to assert themselves.

In response to your second point, You are on the feminist board. Most women here have survived abuse, rape, mysogny and will not take it again. So we're not the best example of the normall submissiveness of women

I live my life by observing the behaviour of other so I think I'm qualified to say that your post of 14:12 is utter rubbish.

thank fuck it isn't just me. I'm too tired to argue anymore now.

"MarySue, when men say they don't want to have to get verbal consent, what they really mean is that they want to be able to ignore the non-verbal signs, such as the ones that unclefest describes.

Seeking verbal consent should avoid any of the situations where there are "misunderstandings" or "she changed her mind after" and the other common rape myth scenarios. What could be bad about that?"

I, and I believe most other women, do not need or want verbal consent to be established every single time we have sex. I don't care about what reasons men might have. That is what some people were proposing, though they are not backing it up now, because it obviously looks silly when you are talking about a LTR, even though rapes could happen in those.

one last post.
You believe a lot about what other women want. Why don't you try asking them? Oh wait, you have, and some of them disagreed.....

Again. Please tell me who believes every single time a man and a woman has sex, verbal consent is essential, even in a ltr. Yes or no? I say no, others were arguing yes. That is all this is about.

I just don't understand what you are trying to say here MSFTW. You expressed disagreement with the idea that rape myths prevail today (yet go on to be a bit Old Testament with the whole 'women can just say no, fight back' etc) and now you are fixated upon the idea that just because some people think verbal affirmation of consent is a good idea that somehow this is going to directly affect your own sex life.

If that would help people like me, and you insist on being facile and simplistic, then YES.

but since you're such a big strong clever woman MS, you won't need your partners to ask

MarySue everyone here has already stated that in marriages/ ltrs you pick up on your partners moods and do not always need verbal consent, though you should if you are ever unsure (all too frequent for me). Why do you persist in trying to get people to say something we have already disagreed with?

However, if you have met someone in a bar/ club/ WI tea party, or recently started a relationship and you've both decided to retreat to their home/ car/ secluded grove it wouldn't hurt to check would it?

No MitchiestInge, I am not disputing verbal consent is a good idea. I am debating the idea that it is essential every single time anyone has sex ever or its rape, which is or seemed to be the view put forward some pages ago, and all I am disputing, and asking who agrees with that view. What is hard to understand?

"The man escalates. The woman doesn't resist and makes it clear she is happy with the escalation. That's how many women like it, thanks, and it's enough. "

So how does she make this clear? OK, so unzipping his fly and grabbing it is pretty clear. But in a lot of cases of fairly young girls (mostly) they don't really do anything (I don't mean underage, although I've told that it works the same way to). They don't know how to react, and they're not sure whether they want to do it, so they just lie there and let this person get on with it.

MarySue, do you really think that most women would rather be forced to have sex that they didn't want, rather than to have to say "yes" or "no" when asked if they want sex? I doubt very much that is the case.

It's hard to understand why anyone would be so wilfully - I don't know, obtuse? Why don't you just copy and paste the part where a previous poster said 'if there was no explicit verbal consent it was rape' and chat about it with them? I don't remember reading that.

As rediculous as you've made the post sound Mitch, believe it or not that is the defininition of rape. To penetrate someone's body with a penis without their consent. That is what it is. And that's what I'm trying to say. If you don't (whether the woman is happy to procede or not) you run the risk of legally being accused of rape. So why not protect yourself and make sure?

Dear MarySue the example given at 14:40 by TAB pretty much describes how I lost my virginity. I had no idea how to deal with what was happening and even though I had previously said I was not interesting in sex I had no idea how to stop it. I have a damn good idea about when consent is or is not required. If the man involved had taken the time to ask if I was ready sometime before penetrating me I would have said no, however the oppourtunity was not there.

Women freeze, women find themselves unsure how to 'politely' bring up the fact you'd rather you stopped putting your penis in them, women appreciate the opportunity to give consent. Wait sorry, you represent all women, I'm a minority.

"MarySue everyone here has already stated that in marriages/ ltrs you pick up on your partners moods and do not always need verbal consent, though you should if you are ever unsure (all too frequent for me). Why do you persist in trying to get people to say something we have already disagreed with?"

I made my first post on this subject because people were saying verbal consent is always essential, or it is rape if the woman doesn't make it verbally clear she is consenting. -

Catainitaina - "In my opinion, I think that the only reasonable thing that a defendent could argue to say he was convinced that consent had been given would have been the the verbal expression of agreement ie "yes I want to have sex".

Any other arguments: she was his girlfriend, she had already had sex with him before, she went back to his for coffee etc etc should not be interpreted as consent."

HerBex - "And of course, that's why women don't report it - becuse they themselves think "that's not rape". They blame themselves - "if I hadn't been a bit drunk" "if I'd been clearer that I didn't want that" "he didn't realise I wasn't up for it, I didn't make myself clear".... rape victims go through a plethora of minimising, long before anyone else minimises it for them."

TheAtomicbroomstick - "Also, MarySue, the old consent arguement is surely a pile of shit. There is absolutely no reason why you cannot attain consent, and I fail to see why anyone reasonable person would have an issue with it. Yes, if you put it in a stupid way like, "May we proceed to intercourse now?" then it will sounds stupid."

sunshineandbooks - "IMO it should be that unless a woman clearly, and in unequivocal terms, says she wants to have sex, it should be assumed that she doesn't. Unless you have consent on those terms, it should be considered automatic not to proceed."

These people are saying verbal consent is always necessary. The last few were direct rebuttals to my post saying non-verbal consent can be obvious, and verbal consent is not always needed. So I asked again and again who thinks verbal consent is always needed, yes or no. Its not a tough question.

I give up too

and you have had several clear yes answers, and some nos. Which you are conveniently ignoring. Are you going to wait till everyone on the thread/Mumsnet/the planet has answered before delivering your final pronouncement for the majority of women?

That isn't the law TAB, nothing about 'explicit verbal consent', just 'reasonable belief in consent'.

MitchiestInge TAB has made a good point tho. Even though the law only calls for 'reasonable belief', why not protect yourself and make sure?

exactly. I think it's a good idea. Make sure.

We were/are talking about what constitutes rape. It's a thread about rape myths.

Some people argue anything less than clear verbal consent means it is rape. They reject the idea that it is up to the woman to say no and say that a man must get verbal consent. While this seems reasonable in some situations where there is some doubt, clearly it is not going to be needed in a ltr... right? But you can still be raped by your partner in a ltr. Catinahaita says that even then the only true consent is clear verbal consent.

I disagree, and believe most women don't require verbal consent every time. I wonder who else thinks that verbal consent is necessary every time or its rape. That is what I was asking. It's a shame most people couldn't debate that without a seeming desire to just completely misinterpret what I said, or repeatedly ask me to defend a position I never put forward.

All I said was "without their consent." The actual definition as it is written is:

? The Sexual Offences Act 2003
o Statutory definition of consent: a defendant is guilty if:
 he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person with his penis,
 the victim does not consent to the penetration, and
 he does not reasonably believe that the victim consents.
o Definition of consent: ?a person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice?.

OK. It doesn't explicitely say, "verbal consent." It's just a good idea to make sure you both to be sure. Whether law or not, inserting your penis into someone without asking just seems a little rude, don't you think?

And already said that although I asked my DP the first time, and I do now sometimes if I'm not sure whether she wants to, normally I can tell and don't need to ask.