The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

[DontCallMePeanut]

From The Telegraph

Sorry, my head's not in the right place to provide any critique of this at the moment, but thought this would interest the members of the feminist section. Will attempt to comment when I have a clearer head.

Wow. Think you are lucky not to automatically understand this MSFTW. I don't know how to begin to spell it out, but am definitely not the only person in the world who finds it all but impossible to say 'no'. Obviously in the normal course of things it's not a big problem, it's not, as has been pointed out, difficult to tell when someone is and is not up for it without recourse to verbal confirmation either way.

Is it honestly difficult for you to imagine and understand? Or are you enjoying some perverse satisfaction from making people spell it out?

"The problem is, MarySue, that once you go down the route of implied consent, where is the line drawn? And although some people could get along fine without a clearly defined line, others would push it as far as they could.

What actions would imply this? If a man and a woman are alone in a house, is that implying? Uh, no. Imagine how awkward that would make the gas man's job. If she's drunk? If she leaves with a man and goes to his house, many would say."

There is no implied consent. In the man's mind there may be hope there will be consent.If she says no at any point, no consent for you sunshine. Simple.

"Was she implying that she intended to have sex with one of us? Actually, no, she wasn't. "

Of course not, is not point.

"you should draw a line under consent and say it has to be had."

Verbal consent, EVERY time? In a marriage or ltr? No thanks, and I think I speak on behalf of the majority here.

MarySue, lots of people find it difficult to say "no" in other situations let alone one's where they are scared and intimidated by a person who may rape them.

Example:

DH went to dinner with an old friend who ordered a £100 bottle of wine. He did not explicitely ask if this was ok with DH. If he had DH would have said "no" but because he didn't and DH felt socially awkward, he didn't say anthing and split the bill for an expensive bottle of wine he didn't want at the end.

If it can happen in a benign social situation, you can certainly imagine it if you think you might be raped.

"I think I speak on behalf of the majority here." . This may be where you are going wrong...

I know if any of my friends were having sex with a woman who "froze" they'd stop. Straight away. That's as big a "no" as a verbal "no".

Just double checked with a friend... "well, if a woman freezes in sex, she obv. don't want it..." That answer has come straight from a man.

Verbal consent, EVERY time? In a marriage or ltr? No thanks, and I think I speak on behalf of the majority here. DO you? REALLY?

"Tell me some situations where a woman can't say 'no, I don't want to' and shut it down right there."
Erm, when she's had too much to drink? When she's frightened?

Let me get this straight. Some people here are saying verbal consent is required every single time anyone has sex, even in a ltr or marriage, right or wrong? Who agrees?

"Think you are lucky not to automatically understand this MSFTW. I don't know how to begin to spell it out, but am definitely not the only person in the world who finds it all but impossible to say 'no'. "

So every other woman in the world must change the way she has sex and make sure verbal consent is established? Even if it is obvious by non-verbal consent? I don't want to. Nor do other women. It's not going to happen. Perhaps it would be easier for you to get help in how to say no.

"Tell me some situations where a woman can't say 'no, I don't want to' and shut it down right there."
Erm, when she's had too much to drink? When she's frightened?"

That's been covered, read my previous posts. In those situations its rape, or why is she frightened?

I think in marriage it is a slightly different matter. I suppose once you're married, or have been with someone for a long time, you are far more attuned to your partner. I normally know when she doesn't want and she does. If I'm not sure, I will check (probably in a joking mannor).

But even in marriage, where is the line? Is it that, "she's my wife, she can give it any time I want." Probably not.

Of course, if you're in a normal relationship, you should feel more comfortable saying no than if it is someone you don't know very well.

No MarySue, not every woman must change the way she has sex, but every man. It is up to men to seek consent and as much as anything they should do it to protect themselves from accusations of rape.

Oh MarySue, how funny you are with your ?we can say no nonsense. We forsooth. If you knew anything about what it is like to be coerced into sex, you wouldn?t be lecturing women about the ?frozen with fear? scenario, because although that?s a scenario men understand, that isn?t actually what I was describing ?I talked about not being able to believe that this was happening to you, which is quite different.

And as for this ?how hard is it to say no?? bollocks ? well how hard is it to ask if this is OK? The problem with how hard is it to say no, is that you are putting the onus on women to make it clear that they don?t want sex, rather than on men to ensure that the woman they are with actively wants sex. Seeing as how he is going to be the person who enters another person?s body for chrissake, the onus is on him to be sure that he?s welcome there.

Why are you so hung up on verbal consent? I don't think it always has to be verbal. Definitely once you know someone, are shagging regularly, it is much easier to communicate consent.

You said you found it difficult to understand why some women might not be able to say no. Can you not imagine the sort of sexual or personal history that might have affected, I don't know how to put it, the ability to set boundaries, the sense that you have some say over what happens to your body?

I agree with Herb and Karma.

""Tell me some situations where a woman can't say 'no, I don't want to' and shut it down right there."
Erm, when she's had too much to drink? When she's frightened?"

That's been covered, read my previous posts. In those situations its rape, or why is she frightened?"

Previous bad sexual experiences.

what about when you're a young woman (20), started out the evening being up for a dance and a snog, wanted to go back with the chap to his flat, ended up feeling that you did not want full sex but felt somehow that you had led them on and they had a right to expect it. This happened to me. Looking back I see they had no right to, I think they saw that too, but for whatever reason, I wish to hell they had given me the get out clause of saying 'are you sure this is what you want' because I would have said no.

"Seeing as how he is going to be the person who enters another person?s body for chrissake, the onus is on him to be sure that he?s welcome there."

I quite agree HerBeX. But verbal consent, every time, is not needed. And I doubt anyone here requires it or gets it with their partners every time either.

I do think I am speaking on behalf of the majority of women when I say we can give obvious consent without a verbal agreement every single time, and we don't want a man to have to ask every time. Maybe I'm wrong - but even so, the majority cannot force a minority to change either, so what is point? Feel free to pose the question outside of this section or link to a poll to prove the point either way.

so laws should protect the "majority", rather than everyone?

If someone is holding you firmly, touching you in spite of your lack of response to him, not looking at you to confirm you?re happy with what he?s doing, ignoring your obvious lack of participation in what's happening here, you already know, that saying no isn?t going to stop him. If you do say no, you risk bringing the fact that he is fucking raping you out into the open ? and that might be more dangerous than just submitting to rape, because he might start hurting us in other ways.. That?s why women don?t say no Mary Sue. And also, take a look at this, it discusses how women are conditioned not to say no right from every experience they ever have and then suddenly, in a situation where their bodily integrity is being threatened, they are expected to throw off a lifetime of conditioning and act as though all that conditioning didn?t happen.

Brilliant explanation for those who don?t want to get it as well as for those who already do but need it articulating clearly

I'm really lost now. Is your gripe with the bit of law that says the defendant must have sought consent? Or the idea you have picked up from somewhere that some people think verbal consent is a good idea every time, I can't see how the latter affects you?

"Why are you so hung up on verbal consent? I don't think it always has to be verbal. Definitely once you know someone, are shagging regularly, it is much easier to communicate consent."

That's what I'm saying. But some people here are saying verbal consent is necessary every time. That's what I'm disagreeing with.

"what about when you're a young woman (20), started out the evening being up for a dance and a snog, wanted to go back with the chap to his flat, ended up feeling that you did not want full sex but felt somehow that you had led them on and they had a right to expect it. This happened to me. Looking back I see they had no right to, I think they saw that too, but for whatever reason, I wish to hell they had given me the get out clause of saying 'are you sure this is what you want' because I would have said no."

That would have been ideal, if you'd been asked. But you could have said no. Some people here would say that lack of verbal consent makes the man a rapist. Do you agree?

I am so screwed up from experiences of childhood that I felt I had no right to say no. I am not sure I am a good case in point. I feel I should have been asked and taken better care of.

Why are you so determined to put the onus on women to say No, MarySue, when we are conditioned all our lives, not to say No outright in that way? Why are you so determined to make it a woman's responsibility to stop what is happening, rather than a man's responsibility to ensure that what is happening is wanted?

Have you read the link I posted?

MarySue, in an ongoing relationship it is easier to rely on non-verbal signs because you should have a good understanding of your partner. For a first sexual encounter, I think it is best for men to seek verbal consent (or if they don't the non-verbal clues should be unmistakable). Any decent man would be happy to do so as it would mean he could avoid raping someone. A selfish man, completely lacking in empathy, should still do so to avoid a situation where he is later accused of rape.

Yes, in fact, that link was a good eye opener. Why don't you read it MarySue? One thing is clear, and that's that you've never been unfortunate enough to feel not in control of a situation. Which is luck, not something you've achieved through your own cunning and cleverness. TRY to put yourself in the shoes of someone more vulnerable and less vocal for five minutes?