Smear tests to subordinate women

[sakura]

I have been looking at the recent threads about compulsory smear tests in Poland, and I have to say, it doesn'T surprise me that they're compulsory in some countries. THis is a natural, inevitable, progression from the actual purpose of screening.

[Oh, did you think smear tests were about saving women's lives?!?!]

wildkittydear made an excellent point (I hope she doesn't mind me quoting her}
"It is shocking that Poland is thinking of making very personal medical examinations for women compulsory. I personally am very offended by the way only breast and cervical cancer are championed as the only killers of women and I know that is an exaggeration!! but do you get my drift? Some illnesses get priority in the media and I am not convinced there is always a benign reason for this."

Yes, Womanhood is the "problem" to be cured. Women's organs that are seen as faulty-- because men don't have them. Not male = pathology.

The truth is that women's bodies are much, much healthier than men's because we have two Xs in our chromozomal make up and each X contains lots of life-preserving genes, whereas the Y is slightly pitiful by comparison.
This is why women live longer and why boys are more like to be born with chromozomal abnormalities or die when they get sick. Girls tend to recover.
The extra X gives women the biological upper hand.

Men don't really know how to look after their bodies either, in a general sense (healthy diet etc)

Considering this, it's really important to question why the medical fraternity is obsessed with getting women to their tests and not men. Men are more likely to contract all sorts of diseases and cancers, and much earlier in their life than women too.

But men are trusted to look after their own bodies and decide for themselves whether they want to be screened or not. There is no goverment promoted mass-screening programme of testicular cancer, for example. BEcause testicles belong to men, and are therefore regarded as "healthy until proven otherwize"Men are not frightened, coerced or cajolled into being screened because there is no obsession with controlling them.

THe history of medicine teaches us that women, and by default their sex specific organs, are regarded as defective and pathalogical. (when if any sex is defective, it is the male sex due to the Y, which renders them biologicaly more vulnerable to disease in a number of ways)

Greer has covered this in detail in The Whole Woman. She has examined the evidence which shows that cervical screening has done nothing to save women's lives.
Women are still dying from cervical cancer. Although the rate of cervical cancer has been dropping , that is not because of screening, but because because it was actually dropping naturally before mass screening was invented, and continues to drop at the same rate.

Often mistakes are made in the laboratories, and there have been cases of women who actually had healthy cervixes being treated for cancer, and women who had cancer were missed, and ended up dying.

As I said, the point is not to actually save women's lives, but to get women to comply, to STFU and to be penetrated by gynelogical instruments.I don'T get screened, because I've looked at the statistics and found that, despite screening, women are still dying of cervical cancer so the margin for human error in the tests is too great.

Which brings me to another important question. WTF are men doing in gynecology anyway? I mean, WhyTF are they even there? In the room? Sticking bits of metal into women? Researching vaginas, when it's not their place to do so? THe funding should go to female scientists and doctors [but that's for another thread]

I haven't had a smear test for over ten years. WHen I had my first at 18 the results came back telling me I needed to go for a re-test for possible cancerous cells. I went back, had another check, the second time it came back clear (after me scaring myself to death). After doing research I learned that if you have had sperm or even your period (if you'd just finished it) can interfere with the findings, making it look as though there may be cancerous cells when there aren't.

WHat a joke. And the joke's on women. And I haven't been back since.

My GP refused to remove my coil so I could try for a baby until I had a smear.

I didn't argue much because I don't mind having a smear test. But I think her attitude went beyond 'caring'.

Grimma you just x-posted with a whole load of crime stats. :) Men are more likely to be murdered and more likely to be the victims of violent crime in general and that has nothing to do with smears or medical ethics.

Sakura thinks that women are better than men because they have two Xs, I have asked if trisomy X = superwoman. Chromosomes don't have a lot to do with smear tests and medical ethics either though.

My brain is starting to hurt

I am am shocked that a GP threatened to with-hold other treatment unless the woman had a smear though.

All of the women I know died peacefully in their sleep after outliving their partners.

Its also reminded me to book a smear. Thanks.

Now to try and persuade DH to get his prostate checked.

Once again - I'll answer that Butlinsbabe even though I am not a smear-refuser :)

It's because a woman has the right to make decisions about what happens to her body - whether that's an informed decision, a reckless one the right or wrong one. I think.

ItsNotUnusual - if they were going in there to get your coil out couldn't they do a quick swipe with the smear implement at the same time? Or is taking out a coil just a tug on some string?

Actually, thats not true. There's a suicide and a car crash amongst the peaceful deaths. No murders though. Thankfully.

There are two anecdotes here of doctors being way out of line with coils and smears. In both cases female.... hum, maybe an all female gynae profession wouldn't solve the problems with the 'patriarchy'.

That is completely outrageous Itsnot and you should have reported her for it TBH.

I still can't understand the thrust of this thread though. I can't understand what the patriarchy gain from encouraging women to have smears. (not talking about the Polish law here)

Quote -"WOmen are murdered at a far greater frequency than men"

No they aren't. According to a parliamentary report:

" In England and Wales in 1997, a third of homicide
victims were female. In the early 1990s females accounted for more (around 40% of) victims. Almost four fifths of female victims and just over half of male victims knew their killer. A present or former partner or lover killed almost half of female victims. Around a third of men
were killed by someone they knew (but not family/partner) and another third by a stranger."

Now, you can say women are more considerably more likely to be murdered by a partner, current or former, than men are. But women make up far less than half of all homicides in England and Wales.

Continually getting stats wrong is just making you look even more fanatical.

Sorry Sakura, I have in the past agreed with you sometimes, disagreed with you at others, but this OP has degenerated from quixotic to just plain barking, ranty illogicality (with the exception of your point about it being shocking to enforce smear tests). And quoting Greer is not of itself a conclusive answer to criticisms: she is intelligent and thought-provoking but she is not the last word or ultimate authority on this or any other issue.

There is a very good debate to be had about screening programmes in general. Many are controversial (prostate screening at all, the perameters of the breast screening programme, etc etc.) and may do more harm than good. Anyone interested could look at the HealthWatch site, which has had some good articles on this issue over the years.

However, the idea that the medical profession and NHS have devoted all this money, time and thought (not to mention research) to cervical cancer screening as a disguised rape campaign is not worthy of any serious discussion. And the conduct of the screening is crap for all the usual reasons the NHS is often crap, surely? (underfunding, lack of qualified staff). For shame, really.

Itsnotunusual - smearrefuser

It goes without saying we all make decisions about our own bodies but why make a decision that could prove fatal?
The one good thing to come out of the tragedy of jade Goody's death was that the uptake among young women of smear tests leapt.

boysrock EC is a prescribed medication that can be given without a script where criteria are met. You don't seem to realise the need for effective and thorough assessment before issuing someone withe something that may or may not, depending on the answers given, actually work.

Given that many women attending for EC don't keep track of their periods, don't necessarily use regular contraception reliably, and have very little understanding of how conception and contraception work, giving them free reign to self-medicate with hormones could be seen as poor practice. You say

"why are women not credited with the brains to work out if map is suitable for them with the right information? without the consent of someone in authority?"

It's nothing to do with being 'in authority' it's to do with someone having the knowledge and understanding of how EC works and whether it's appropriate in the situation making the decision along with the patient as to whether EC should be issued. If not, then alternative advice or provision should be given.

TrillainAstra - dunno; something to do with wanting to do the smear at one stage of my cycle and the coil removal at another. I'm not complaining, I got pregnant at the first shot, even at my ripe old age.

GrimmaTheNone - I see my GP as part of the patriarchy even though she is a woman. It's the system, see.

Please note that I don't go around making my GP feel aware of my hositilty to the patriarchy and her role in it! That's why I describe myself very quietly as a closet RadFem.

I think the controlling part of it is how women are constantly on a kind of calendar, always having to remember to do things, the whole time, and getting told off if they forget or don't want to.

Many women in the UK are in and out of doctors surgerys with extreme regularity for things related to their reproductive system. From puberty to past menopause. Each stage of life has "risks" and the things that we (have) to do have risks and the whole thing is a bit mind-bending when you stop to think og it.

From puberty or teens many/most girls are introduced to their first synthetic hormones and for many they are taken for a decade or more. Then babies and all of the rigmarole that entails. Then more hormones, until menopause, when it's yet more hormones. All the while there's letters for smears dropping through the letterbox every 5 mins and exortions to check breasts etc. The whole life is mapped out and marked out in medications.

I can't think of anything my DH is supposed to attend the docs for (that isn't something he actually has wrong IYSWIM).

That could be because putting a coil in or taking it out is preferably done in the first two days of your period (when cervix is slightly open, apparently) to minimize pain, and a smear test can't be done when you have your period.

EldrichCleavage,

Thank you for your post.
That is the happy medium in this argument. Yes, there is a debate to be had about this.
But it's important to remember that "research into gynecology" has often consisted of men inflicting tortuous suffering onto women. Please read Mary Daly's Gyn/Ecology for detailed information of the "research into gynecology"
And yes, the amount of "research" into gynecology has been phenomenol over the past 200 years or so. It makes for sickening reading.

Butlins, do you know for certain that Jade Goody didn'T go for her smear tests?

That's hardly the fault of men though is it?

Wasn't so long ago that the biggest killer of women was childbirth. That's no longer the case thanks to those pesky patriarchs and as if that wasn't enough, the bastards have come up with effective contraception controlled by women, breast and cervical screening, free and safe abortion and the MAP.

Bastards, we were so much better off barefoot and pregnant.

"Have you ever noticed how it is womens reproductive health that is focused on from cancer to contraception? listening to the media you would think we died of nothing else. But we do.

Have you noticed how many routine check up appoontments we go to compared to put mal relatives despite being fit and well.

Have you noticed how when a screening programme is scaled back because it does not need to be so intense ( i think pap smear but could be wrong) there was media concern."

My thoughts exactly. I too went WTF? at the opening post from Sakura.

However, after reading this thread, I now know where she's coming from.

My smears are done by the sister who is always on hand at my GP. None of the male GPs are allowed to perform vaginal or breast exams without a female nurse in the room.

The same goes for Consultants in the UK. They have to have a nurse present.

Is it the same for a male exam? Does anyone know? If a male is having a testicular exam, is there a FEMALE nurse present with the doc? Or can a male doc perform exams alone?

My old GP, we've relocated but NOT because of him, was accused of indecently touching a teenage girl. He was arrested, investigated and proven NOT GUILTY.

The girl later said that she wanted him to fancy her so had made the claims against him. Thing is, she was a friend of his DD. He very nearly lost his license to practice medicine and be a GP.

In that one moment.

Sorry, rambling now.

SaF, I'M not misrepresenting what Greer has said at all. I know exactly what she said.

Aside from the issue of compulsory smears, Surely the patriarchy doesn't want to eliminate women, merely to subjugate and control them so that they know their place, preferably of course without the women even being aware they are being subjugated?

It goes without saying we all make decisions about our own bodies but why make a decision that could prove fatal?

Does it? Does it go without saying? It appears to not be the case in Poland. And possibly in other parts of the world, so I read on this board (and I cannot back up with research, evidence and links so don't aske me to!!)

'Could' prove fatal - some woman have assessed the risks and made decisions based on that. Y'know, the way it goes without saying.

Thank you SardineQueen [hi, BTW ] and Mouseface,
I think you both get where I'm coming from

I do think there is a conversation to be had that the proliferation of things that women are supposed to do compared to men, is a result of a certain attitude.

Problem = unwanted pregnancy
Answer = plethora of things that prevent women conceiving, nothing really for men
Problem = cervical cancer (usually caused by HPV ie sex)
Answer = women get smears

Look at the HPV jab - it's just being given to girls although if you gave it to boys as well this would make it even more efficacious. Why? From threads on here it seems that people don't want their sons tampered with "unnecessarily" as cervical cancer isn't their problem, was the gist from a lot of posters.

So it does seem that for each problem the answer is to leave men alone and do stuff to women, which is a response deeply ingrained in the conscience of a patriarchal society IYSWIM.

Not really thought about this before but I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere that is worthy of debate.