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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bechdel Test Thread

330 replies

TrilllianAstra · 22/06/2011 20:52

I thought having a thread for "I just watched this and it passed/failed and I thought..." would be good to encourage me to think of the Bechdel test when watching TV/films or reading books. I wonbe watching/reading anything on purpose for the thread, just thought I would apply it to whatever I happened to be watching or reading.

The test doesn't necessarily say that a film is feminist/antifeminist, but it is interesting.

Rules reminder:
Are there at least two women (some versions say "two women with names")
Who have a conversation
About something other than a man?

Feel free to join in :)

OP posts:
MyBrainIsOutOfChristmasTunes · 06/12/2011 21:39

I think Agatha Christie's Third Girl passes. Mrs Oliver goes off on a bit of sleuthing on her own and talks with some women about this and that.

AbsofCroissant · 07/12/2011 10:21

Right, recently read:
The Help - passed with multiple flying colours (there's only about two men in it)
Anna Karenina - passed. Very good convo between Anna and Kitty about children and how crap it is to be a woman
The Bluest Eye - passed, it's mostly about women
Still reading - Paradise - passing

TV Shows
How I Met - two of the main characters are female, and have lots of convos not about men
Arrested Development - the mother and sister occassionally speak to each other. Will have to pay more attention
Modern Family - lots of female characters, lots of talking about diff topics, sometimes about men
Seinfeld - Fail :( as there's mainly just Elaine, though in some episodes she talks to other women, not about men, so pass! (and also cos it's the best show ever).

Trills · 18/12/2011 15:26

Harry Potter last night (Order of the Phoenix)

Professor McGonagall had a face-off with the new evil pink teacher (she does have a name). So that's a pass.

But as far as I could see there were no conversations between any two female teenagers.

Selky · 19/12/2011 14:14

I watched " Another Year" That passes. Lots of conversations with Gerri and Ann. Gerri and the doctor (who is named but I've forgotten) about work etc.

ElfenorRathbone · 19/12/2011 21:03

Yesterday I watched 3 episodes of ~Merlin

2 passed - Some queen or other played by Lindsay Duncan, had a voncersation with Morgana about Camelot. In the other episode, Morgana had a conversation with a magical old hag about hwo to get souls back from the dead.

1 failed. Gwyn asked a magical creature who is a woman what her anme was and said her name was Gwyn but not sure if that constitutes a conversation

msrisotto · 31/12/2011 09:19

Mission Impossible 4 fails, as does Men In Black 1. I watched these over the xmas-new year break. In both there are 2 women who speak in the whole movie.

limitedperiodonly · 02/01/2012 12:02

Bit OT because I can't find the feminist films thread from a while back but I want to mention this.

I watched Tootsie for the first time in years yesterday and I was surprised to find one of its major messages is feminism.

The most striking thing is a scene where Dustin Hoffman masquerading as an actress, Dorothy Michaels, reluctantly invites her lecherous co-star to her flat. Dorothy only does it because the co-star is making a racket and annoying her neighbours and she feels sorry for him because he's a figure of ridicule on the film set.

Once inside he leaps on her despite her protests and it's only broken up by Dorothy's male flatmate Geoff coming in. Co-star immediately leaves apologising for trespassing on Geoff's territory. Geoff then teases Dorothy, who he obviously knows is his friend Michael, along the lines of: 'why did you invite him here if you didn't want anything to happen?'

The thing that stunned me is that Dorothy/Michael snaps that 'rape' is never funny.

Up to that point the scene was played for laughs, like all reluctant woman/sex pest scenes in comedies are. And everything that goes before is exactly how most rapes happen: the woman is guilted into being alone with the man, she tries to handle it politely, even her friends ask what on earth she expected.

With the rest of it: Dorothy constantly ad-libs during filming to dodge set-ups that will allow her co-star to grope her or allow him to assault other actresses.

Her ad-libs also present her character, a hospital administrator, as a strong responsible and caring person rather than the menopausal wimp her producers want her to be.

She changes lines that should have her advising a victim of DV to seek counselling to telling the woman to call the police and kick her husband out and shames the female producer into agreeing that's the responsible advice to give. The actress playing the beaten woman is the one who kicks up the biggest fuss about Dorothy changing the lines.

Dorothy insists the director calls her by her proper name like he does the men instead of Tootsie, Toots, Baby etc. She tries to get the other actresses to do the same and advises his girlfriend to leave him.

Even though the director hates her she becomes such a popular character with the millions of women who watch the show that he can't sack her.

They also chuck in bits about workers' rights and the general treatment of women by men.

It doesn't pass the Bechdel Test because the only conversations between women are with a real woman and a man in drag. And they only ever talk about men. But the passing the BT isn't a guarantee of feminism though it's a good starting point.

And it's sexist in the idea that only a man can truly help women but there's far more good than bad in it.

limitedperiodonly · 02/01/2012 12:08

And it's also got lines about the amount of money and time women spend making themselves look acceptable to society.

Trills · 02/01/2012 12:13

Last night's Sherlock may have had a few lines exchanged between Irene Adler and her assistant (Kate) where they discussed makeup, but it was all in the context of getting ready for a man so I think that's a fail.

Trills · 02/01/2012 12:14

Tootsie sounds interesting!

blondechristmas · 02/01/2012 13:10

Yesterday I watched:

True Grit (original version)
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (American version)
Terminator 2

All striking in that they feature (even centre around) a strong, unconventional female character but fail the Bechdel.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 02/01/2012 13:46

Watched The Princess Bride last night. One of my favourite films, but good grief, it failed spectacularly.

The mother was in the film, only to introduce the Grandfather for the narrative role. There were other women featured in the film, aside from Buttercup, but only one had a spoken role, and that was to talk to Buttercup about her upcoming wedding, so by default, about a man.

What was even more noticable was that, even though the film was apparently about Buttercup, the main focus was on Westley's story, and that of Thingymajig Montoya. Buttercup became something of a side story.

Prolesworth · 02/01/2012 16:50

Sherlock was shockingly bad from a feminist POV. Apart from Irene Adler, who was the only female character shown any respect by the male characters and only then because she represented as some kind of man in a woman's super-sexy body (but ultimately let down by her inability to resist Sherlock, even though she claimed to be a lesbian, but a lesbian who says she wants to 'do' Sherlock over a desk until he begs for mercy), there was the horrible humiliation of the female pathologist - a pathologist portrayed as a stupid, inarticulate, lovestruck idiot - by Sherlock, and Watson's hilarious inability to distinguish between his girlfriends which leads him to getting dumped, and the Una Stubbs housekeeper dogsbody who idolises her 'boys'. Utter misogynist TRIPE.

MMMarmite · 02/01/2012 18:58

Watched Charlie Brooker's screenwipe, in which male comedians talked about mostly male news.

I watched the film Love and Basketball, it passed the Bechdel test and the main character was a strong young woman who plays basketball. It was pretty feminist as far as a romance can be (given that the main point of straight romance films is to get the guy). The writer/director and all the main characters were African-Americans, it was refreshing to see something that avoided the usual stereotyping.

limitedperiodonly · 02/01/2012 21:38

I have a very dim view of Charlie Brooker because he bores and irritates me.

It's not just from a feminist viewpoint, but there's a start.

My view of 'comic' panel shows except for R4's News Show is even dimmer.

MMMarmite · 02/01/2012 23:14

I quite like news-related comedy, but the only stuff I ever see is all men or one token woman, which is almost as bad because one woman can't really stand up to misogyny from four men at once. I'd love to see what a news comedy show made by women only would be like.

OneHandWrapping · 03/01/2012 14:51

The only conversation between two women I can remember in Girl With a Dragon Tattoo is between the eponymous Girl, (Elizabeth?) and the dragon administrator at the Vanger head office. So it's hardly passed with flying colours. Largely because, despite the title, and the unconventional female lead, it's really all about the man, Blomkvist (Daniel Craig).

She even shags him, despite, apparently being gay. Because you can't have a film where the 45 year old male lead doesn't get to sleep with the 22 year old assistant. They even started with her on top, but he turns her onto her back to put her in her place give her a proper submissive seeing to. Plus you get to see pretty much all of her, and not nearly enough of Daniel Craig.

Trills · 03/01/2012 17:43

She's not gay, she's bisexual. You can tell by how she chooses to have sex with both males and females. And the sex (with him, at least) was entirely on her terms.

(note: have read books but not seen film so not sure if it is less obvious in the film, but the sex between the two leads was entirely her idea)

Trills · 04/01/2012 08:21

Although I think there's no particular need for them to be anything but friends. Really no need. But since Blomkvist is the author avatar he just has to be irresistibly attractive to all women.

I've been watching the Sarah Connor Chronicles - does it count if one of the named females is actually a robot?

LadyFlumpalot · 05/01/2012 10:05

Apologies if it has already been mentioned but Rosemary and Thyme passes (I think) two independent, crime fighting gardeners!

msrisotto · 05/01/2012 21:26

LOL Rosemary and Thyme, it's beenbloody ages since i've seen that!

Trills - I have no idea about the acceptableness of robots....I reckon robotwomen do count, but some might think it a contentious issue. Grin

Trills · 06/01/2012 09:17

No need to apologise, mention anything that you have seen even if it has been said before!

Maybe robots count the same way as transgender - if they self-identify as female and/or if everyone says "she" when referring to them then they are women for the sake of the test.

LadyFlumpalot · 06/01/2012 11:35

Any of the Terry Prachett witches novels. The three witches have chats between themselves (not all about men/or sex).

Trills · 06/01/2012 12:10

I'm reading a first-person novel with a male protagonist at the moment so I'm a bit stuck, I fully believe that women have conversations without him present but obviously they are all offscreen (literary equivalent for offscreen?).

MMMarmite · 06/01/2012 16:21

The secret life of bees - strong pass, possibly fails the reverse bechdel test.
An excellent film, I recommend it to everyone.

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