Benevolent sexism - should men hold doors open?!

[RedHotPokers]

Just heard an interesting discussion on R4 about 'benevolent sexism'. Did a quick search and foundthis article which is rather less measured than the R4 discussion.

Interested to know what people think.
First post on Feminism topic so hope I haven't repeated a previous topic or put my foot in it!

'Good manners' is foremost about putting other people at ease.

Yes exactly. If something makes the other person unhappy/uncomfortable it is by default not good manners.

People should hold doors open for other people coming through behind them.

People should hold doors open and allow other more vulnerable/encumbered/(and, arguably, senior) people to go through before them (depending on layout, circumstances, etc. -- sometimes it's more practical to open the door and let whoever is coming up behind you go through first regardless of whether their need is greater than yours).

A second X chromosome is, admittedly, larger than a Y chromosome, but does not constitute being "encumbered". And all women are not automatically above or below all men.

But if someone you don't know does hold the door open for you and you suspect it's on account of your gender it is generally polite just to smile and say "Thank you" rather than swear at them or embark on a discussion of modern feminism (there are exceptions). Because in most cases they are just doing what they have been taught it's polite to do without really thinking about why.

DH occasionally holds my hand when I get off trains, because on one of the stations we use it's a bloody big jump down to the platform from my perspective (especially if I am pregnant or have a child in a sling and can't see where my feet are going) and he's a lot taller than me so it's not a bloody big jump down for him. But not at other stations as a matter of course.

i would hold a door open for anyone , male or female if they were 1-10 seconds behined me , and i was walking through the same door. i wouldnt jump up to open a door i wasnt walking through myself unless they were in a wheelchair or a pregnant woman for example.
but, what if the man opening the door for the woman was part of a flirtation they had going on? would that be ok?

what, like he'd open the door all lasciviously, and stroke its handle meaningfully? .

MoreBeta it's pretty simple. If it's something you'd do for anyone, out of politeness, then it's fine.

If it's something you do for your DW, because she has told you she likes it, then it's fine.

If it's something you do for women, because they are women, then it's not fine.

minipie - I agree but it seems even politeness can be misconstrued.

Is it OK to use my strength and size to compete for a seat on the tube before an able bodied woman gets it or should I offer her the seat anyway?

That is a tricky one.

How do you mean? Barge her out of the way because you're afraid you'll look sexist if you don't?

I don't think that's very tricky!

Just a few more years, Beta, and able bodied women will be offering you the seat

RedHotPokers I work in an environment filled with feminist women and feminist-supporting men. We recently had to instigate a rota for taking minutes because although it's voluntary, no man ever volunteers and the women always had to pick up the slack (after leaving it an excruciating five minutes by the clock to make the point).

Where does the thread stand on inside/outside door-holding? It was PISSING it down yesterday, and as I was leaving the petrol station a man was entering. He had hold of the door and had got there first - but he was getting wet, so I waved him in. He waved me out. I waved him in. He waved me out. Then I caved because he was getting wetter and wetter.

I maintain that the non-gendered polite thing to do would be to let the outside person come in first, as they are standing in the wind and the rain and I am in the nice warm indoors.

Irksome - I don't know which is sexist. Me barging her or me offering the seat. As I say, tricky.

Grimma - I recall a 14 yr old girl offered me her seat on a bus some 10 years ago. I was mortified.

I maintain that the non-gendered polite thing to do would be to let the outside person come in first, as they are standing in the wind and the rain and I am in the nice warm indoors.

Yes, unless the door in question is on a train.

Beta - just amble in the direction of the seat so she gets there first anyway. Then its up to her to assess the relative need

Oh for heaven's sake, barging is rude, it would be rude who ever did it. Don't pretend that you're so flummoxed by this modern feminist business that you're now unsure of whether to barge people out of the way or not!

The doors are nothing - will hold a door for a guy and am happy if he does so for me. Will give up my seat in the bus for a guy who has children, shopping, looks ill or tired or if I'm getting off soon. Don't sweat the small stuff. It's the workplace stuff I can't stand - women talk too much, women can't handle technical work, women can't handle the larger projects blah, blah, blah, . Everyone should be able to look after their own bodily needs and do simple DIY etc, iron, shop, cook. Can't abide men or women who expect to be waited on. Can't abide the stereotyping. Just off to put down more insulation in the loft, going for girly shopping with daughter tomorrow. (Then will paint the Forth Bridge, & up run a little chiffon number before donning my tutu for a few grands jetes). Now, where did I put the car jack?

Exactly Irksome.

MoreBeta we all know that the Unwritten Rule on the tube is that the person nearest the vacated seat gets it. If someone is nearer than you and doesn't appear to have seen the seat, you touch their arm and say "did you want to sit down". Then if they say no, you can go for the seat. In no circumstances can you barge past anyone to get to a seat - man or woman.

But you knew all that already, come on.

I think men and women should hold doors open for men and women.

this

"you touch their arm and say "did you want to sit down". "

Can you imagine the explosion on here if that actually happened?

not only has the man got into your personnal space by touching you, he is then condescending enough to ask you if you want to sit down.

which puts us right back at the beginning of this thread.

We had a couple of friends (man and wife) to stay with us this weekend. They are in their mid 60s and had been visiting the Middle East and the man described how he had stood on a metro train to give an old woman carrying heavy shopping his seat. The woman and the entire carriage just stared at him. There were lots of young men sat down but not one would have stood up for the woman because women are second class cittizens.

Kind of an interesting take on this thread I thought.

MoreBeta wrote - "a couple of friends (man and wife)"

On a thread about benevolent sexism.

Alternatives include "man and woman" or "husband and wife".

I know it's an etiquette minefield but I hope that helps.

... or even 'a man and his wife'.

Or "a woman and her husband"

So what was the the Man's point? That here, women (wives?) are first class citizens?

On a programme about body language a few years back I saw the Arafat / Barak clip referred to upthread, where they are fighting to usher each other through the door first. Basically the usherer then becomes the one in control, the one effectively saying "you are a guest on my territory". Interesting implications for the one-way door opening gender thing.

No the man was just shocked when he came up against the cultural difference where in one culture a man would never ever consider standing up for a woman whereas in the UK a man would stand up for a woman at least sometimes.

I wonder which is worse? Never standing up for a woman or sometimes standing up for a woman. Which culture would women prefer? Would women in the UK prefer men to never stand up for them?