Benevolent sexism - should men hold doors open?!

[RedHotPokers]

Just heard an interesting discussion on R4 about 'benevolent sexism'. Did a quick search and foundthis article which is rather less measured than the R4 discussion.

Interested to know what people think.
First post on Feminism topic so hope I haven't repeated a previous topic or put my foot in it!

Smashinghairday, you are missing the point. It's not that every individual man has particular sexist reasons for holding a door open. I'm sure most don't even think about it in a way that "women are weak and couldn't manage a door" or "women deserve to be put on a pedestal and therefore shouldn't have to open doors by themselves". Most men just do it because they were taught to when they were growing up or are just aware that it's "the polite thing to do".

Whereas I was always taught that if you're going through a door first, or you see someone with their hands full or pushing a wheelchair/pram etc, it's polite to hold it open for them. Why should it be based on gender?

If someone was going through a door in front of me and let it slam in my face I would think they were rude (or perhaps unobservant!). If there was a man walking behind me and he didn't immediately leap to open the door for me before I got to it I wouldn't think he was rude at all - I probably wouldn't even notice.

Opening a door for someone, fine. Making a big point of it because the person's a woman, annoying. And perilously close to those arseholes who offer to 'guide you out' of a tricky parking space, or worse still, ask if you want them to do it for you.

If someone was going through a door in front of me and let it slam in my face I would think they were rude (or perhaps unobservant!)

And if the person in front was a woman and the person whose face the door shut in was a man this would be equally true.

Some of my male friends will not go through if I open the door for them. Frankly I do find this rude, and makes me wonder WHY. Am gradually training them by being prepared to wait for as long as it takes :o

Unfortunately we can't choose between door-holding-and-raping and door-slamming-but-no-rape (I know which I'd pick)

I'd like to think a world without rape would be more polite and considerate in general, and so everyone would hold the door for the person behind them :)

Yes, Trillian, that's what I meant, hence the use of "person" :)

Yep, I knew you did, just wanted to make it super-obvious (because you said "slam in my face" and yours is most likely a female face). :)

I can't believe how quick men have been to drop things like holding open doors, and giving up seats, all in the name of equality, and yet at the same time how slow they are to do eg their fair share of house work.

Quite!

How about if man says 'ladies first!' when opening the door?

Well, it is annoying but I'd still say thanks and walk through. I think it's common politeness to hold a door for someone and do so for men and women alike.

As indeed it is polite and common sense to pull your weight around the house. It isn't a master/servant relatsionship, it's a partnership.

I agree - we should hold doors open for everyone!

I work in a very male dominated environment and the one thing I encounter constantly which drives me nuts is blokes apologising for swearing in front of me.

OK, I read the article and all the thread and I still dont know what the heck it's all about.

I open doors for men and women. Actually, I would help a woman open a heavy door rather than just stand and watch her struggle. I get mildly annoyed when men/women let doors slam in my face. I get really annoyed when people sail through a door I am holding open without taking it from me or acknowledging me. Women seem to do this last one a lot more than men - maybe they really are annoyed with me for holding the door.

People compliment me on my cooking and I like it. I compliment other people on their cooking.

I walk on the outside of DW on a pavement because we like to walk arm in arm sometimes. I wait until she is seated in a restaurant and ask her which seat she prefers. I take her hand as she gets off trains and buses and carry suitcases and heavy bags for her.

Politeness surely.

You take her hand as she gets off trains? Is she particularly frail? Disabled? Otherwise incapable of getting off them by herself? I don't have any particular issue with the rest, but I would find that bloody annoying.

i work in an area of the building where i share a staircase and kitchen with the (all male) estates team. they are nice guys but they really do truly tie themsleves in knots to hold doors for me and they make me to that really really cringingly horrible thing where they make me walk UNDER THEIR ARMPIT while they hold the door, rather than let me take it from them.

I FUCKING HATE IT!

[and i still had to have strong words with one of them who assumed i would sort out the shared photocopier, not because i have anything to do with IT or admin but i assume because i have a uterus. ]

MoreBeta, why do you wait until she's seated in a restaurant? Do you also get up every time she does?

MoreBeta - if it were just politeness why would you only do it to a woman? You don't see a need to bestow politeness on a man? How odd.

Smartypants - me fucking too! I only have one guy at work who does that, and it drives me mad. Today I said, 'it's fine I am an adult'.

I hate, hate, hate, the fucking walking under the armpit thing!! Why do they do it?

I had one in the past when I wasn't "allowed" to fix the photocopier because as a woman I wouldn't understand it. He was told where to go.

does anybody recall the near physical fight caused by the question of who would hold the door for whom at the palestinian/israeli peace talks between barak and arafat, i think around 1999/2000? i can recall thinking at the time that this was a pretty clear cut problem with being feminised by the other's 'courtesy.' and this is the problem, surely, with this kind of 'benevolence', that it's just a non-violent expropriation of power?

by these subtle acts are hierarchies maintained. and the fact that it is done unconsciously, and that the door openers/chair offerers/parking 'assistants' would take great offence at the suggestion doesn't make it any less the case.

Butterbur - DW likes it and was most insistent I did it from when we first started dating.

smartypants/Alice - I would wait for any guest and ask if they had a seat preference before taking a seat at a restaurant table. I don't get up when she gets up unless it is the end of the meal.

Totally get the photocopier thing.

I have a fairly senior job, and am regularly the only woman in management meetings. On a number of occasions there has not been a secretary free to take the minutes, and I always end up being asked to do them, despite being of at least equal seniority with at least half of the other meeting attendees.

I can see it happening too! Cogs working in senior managers brains: 'oh look no secretary, oh but it's okay, there IS another woman present to take notes - problem solved' .

Beenbeta - if you do that for any guest, what has that got to do with sexism and romance? I do all sorts of polite things for guests, but I'm not going to mention them here because it has nothing to do with sexist behaviour as I don't provide or withhold my politeness on the basis of sex. Nor do I do them to be romantic.