Do you ever feel like fighting against porn is a losing battle?

[neofeminist]

Because I do. :( DH and I have had it out on this issue after I found a few porn videos on the computer. I made it clear that I found it degrading and harmful to women, asked if he would want our DS stumbling upon it and thinking this was what adult sexuality was supposed to be like, asked if he would want our niece to see it and think this was what she was supposed to be as a woman, etc. At my demand request we watched the Hardcore documentary together, and he seemed appropriately horrified. I told him that it was very important to me that he not watch porn and he said he would not, both out of respect for my wishes and because he would never know if he was watching a woman be raped or not.

Anyway, I was looking at something on google the other day and saw something about "incognito windows" . I looked at a few of the articles about them and they were all "yeh, I use this so the wife won't find out about my porn wink wink" kind of thing. It really made me despair. I don't think DH is using the incognito windows or watching porn (though really I'd have no way of knowing, would I) but it just saddens me that it's so commonplace and almost expected of men.

I guess I don't even have a real question here, I just felt sad. :(

I'd glladly agree to signing a petition.

Oh great. Terrific. A petition saying what? Exactly? 'Stop anyone looking at porn because it's icky?' First you will have to define what you mean by porn. Anything which depicts nudity? Anything which mentions sex? Anything that mentions or depicts sexual practices that you personally dislike?

I mean, if you have a petition going 'There's a lot wrong with the world and feminism could make it better' then people might agree with your statement and you might be able to get a few to post in on the FB status updates, but I can't see it being any more useful than all that crap about 'Post this to your status update if you think ducks are better than chickens'.

I'm thinking more along the lines of changing the things wrt to the late night "porn channels" or whatever they're called.

Me too. Something along the lines of opt-in making it impossible to accidentally click on a porn channel. And stopping kids from pulling up the channel.

Maybe something balanced about blocking porn without a deliberate opt-in and respecting adult choices?

And Ofcom concentrating on what really matters, like the casual sex in just about every drama. Representing every 16 year old as having an active sex life. Non-stop adverts. American garbage. Non-existent children's TV. Reality shows all over the place. Sorry too much wine.

Regards society in general, doubt a petition would achieve much.

Really? The expectation for women to have hairless or vajazzled genitalia and hair straight and long enough to pull while you are throat-fucking her comes from the fashion industry does it? And the expectation that all women will consent to anal sex and a man spunking on to her face and in her eyes - that comes from the fashion industry too, does it?

Get real.

"I can't stand some of the porn that is two clicks away on the internet, but Mumsnet and Mumsnetters have rounded on the idea of joining the campaign to try to do something about it. Baffles me."

I think I know what you are referring to there, and the argument wasn't about allowing access to porn, just about the method of blocking it, and it's technical failings.

If I've got the wrong argument in mind, then I apologise in advance.

WindsorTides: well all the stuff about vajazzling is from The ONly Way Is Essex for a start. And neither anal sex nor spunk on the face are inherently dreadful things that No Decent WOman would ever do.
The fashion industry is less of a problem than the mainstream media in general, though.

danniclare - i would support any campaign to protect children from being overexposed to porn/porn-style material (was thrilled when i heard that music videos were going to start being watershedded where needed), for example - opting in for adult freeview channels. however, i wouldn't be comfortable once it got past that.

i acknowledge that there is a problem with the porn that currently exists both in terms of how it is produced and in terms of the overall message given by it but i just don't have a problem with the basic idea of adults wanting to watch other adults having sex...

and i first heard of vajazzling a couple of years ago from jennifer love hewitt being interviewed on the late late show - i believes she talks about it in one of her books. weird concept to me but i think to ascribe it to coming from the porn industry is probably erroneous.

Even though I am aware that there is ethical porn and that some performers genuinely enjoy it I am 'against' porn because I firmly believe that the majority of the industry is intensely damaging/misogynistic.

However, I think SGB makes a very valid point. I've been thinking about it for a while after an exchange we had on another, similar thread. Regardless of whether you believe that porn is chicken or egg when it comes to the sexualisation of children and the increase of violence towards women, it does not exist in a vacuum. If all porn was banned tomorrow, sexism would still exist, women would still be expected to conform to impossible standards of beauty and stereotyped/submissive ways of behaving.

Personally, I believe that the mainstreaming of porn is partially responsible for undesirable social effects such as pop music aimed at tweens featuring semi-naked women writhing around on chairs singing about whips and chains. However, I don't think the porn industry made it happen, I think it was co-opted. SGB talked about the rise of Murdoch's ilk of media-driven culture and I think she's right. The likes of Murdoch have simply used porn as a tool - to further their financial indomitability and their dominance of the media (sex sells after all). As a result, the way in which stories are sensationalised and presented in our media has had the effect of mainstreaming porn, normalising violence, encouraging suspicion and whipping up indignant, self-righteous frenzies - the 21st-century equivalent to the pitchfork mob.

I think it is far more useful to see the bigger picture - how does media perpetuate misogyny and sexism - than to concentrate on porn, which forms only one part of it. It is a problem, but it's a problem that would not exist without the context of our current media. I think that's why it feels as though we're facing a losing battle - we're attacking a symptom rather than the underlying cause.

I completely agree sunshine, I saw SGB make that point on this or another thread and have been pondering on it a while.

Thank you sunshine. I would also add a reminder that campaigns against bad porn, even when started by feminists with feminist intent, always get co-opted by people whose agenda is not feminist-friendly at all. Look at the complete fucking mess Let Girls Be Girls turned into, for instance.

Sorry, really had to drop in when I saw this.

windsorTides

"Really? The expectation for women to have ... hair straight and long enough to pull while you are throat-fucking her comes from the fashion industry does it?"

Are you saying that the trend for women to have long straight hair comes from porn?

So who's in favour of a petition about controlling porn on TV? As far as I can see DontCallMePeanut and Skrumble would support a petition if the wording was right and Empusa might. Usure about anyone else.

I'm thinking an Downing Street e-petition, but that would be pointless unless it got widespread support which is why it's important to get the wording right before submitting. Should it be purely against something, or a balanced approach? Understand that could be uncomfortable for many people, but I'd like to see the authorities concentrating their efforts on widespread misogyny and sexism in ordinary everyday TV. There's plenty of DH who watch porn but don't want their kids watching and posts here suggest there are also couples who watch. Is it better to get enough signatures for a balanced petition to get debated in Parliament, or go for a pure one and fail?

So, who's in favour and what should the wording be?

danni Depends on the petition. I don't think there is any porn on TV, aside from those dodgy extra channels. And I'd just be happy if there was an easy way to hide them. Not great always seeing them on your TV Guide.

Otherwise, not sure.

I'm a little wary of things like this, as sometimes people with less than savoury agendas/motives get involved. Eg. the ISP porn blocking chaos.

Good luck at trying to find a definition for 'pornography'.

BTW We have all heard of Mary Whitehouse here haven't we?

That's the other thing, jenny is right.

While I'm sure most of us would be in agreement about what constitutes porn. Not everyone actually does - which is where it gets a bit chaotic. And iffy.

I wouldn't want to risk someone deciding that anything with nudity in it was porn. We'd lose a lot of classic art for a start. It would have to be really clearly defined.

My favourite quotation on this subject came from an obscenity trial in the US. The judge, a fellow called Potter Stewart, regarding what constituited obscenity, said:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced?but I know it when I see it?"

I think my preferred course of action here is to teach people, by whatever means, that objectification (wnking over pictures, basically) degrades the participants (I'm including the wnker), can be an addiction and damages normal healthy relationships for all participants (again, I'm including the w*nker). I think 'porn' should also be stigmatised where ever possible. I'm not sure this happens sufficiently.

I'd like to see Fair Trade Porn. How can it degrade if the pay off between parties is equal? If we ensure that all parties are equal and children are not exposed to it, is it not a matter of personal adult choice? If it is, then what is wrong with that?

Dione, define Fair Trade porn, please?

Forgot I started this thread!

Smallwhitecat he has not, to my knowledge, used porn since we watched Hardcore.

Jenny, what is inherently degrading about wanking, looking at pictures, or having other people wank over pictures of you? NOTHING. And i am always immensely suspicious of people who try to set up 'normal healthy relationships' as an opposition to 'evil porn' because these are always people who have a sexual dysfunction which takes the form of trying to control other people's sexual behaviour and the 'healthy' relationships they are trying to compel others to have are always vanilla heteromonogamy with the man in charge.

SGB there's an interesting discussion to be had about the difference between what porn portrays and what the porn industry represents I think.

I personally have no problem with anything that goes on between genuinely consenting adults and I agree that no one should feel ashamed of their fantasies if no one is getting hurt. I've had boyfriends who used porn in the past and it never bothered me. In fact I joined in.

My objection to porn has come about mostly because of what the industry represents, rather than what it portrays. I just couldn't reconcile my 'harmless' viewing with the figures showing the number of abused, trafficked, coerced women in porn. I didn't want to contribute to that problem by continuing to watch and therefore endorse. Because my life has no involvement with the industry I am not in a position to campaign for change from within so I have chosen to boycott instead.

It's a bit like drugs IMO. Most recreational drug users are actually far less trouble than say binge drinkers. In the days when I went raving it was only ever the drinkers who started fights for example. The drug users just wanted to dance and spread the luurve. Yet every single recreational drug user out there is contributing to a backdrop of crime, some of it very nasty indeed.

That could be an argument to legalise drugs of course, just as there is an argument to clean up porn rather than stigmatise it further. It's an interesting debate.

Where your viewpoint troubles me (as in has got me thinking about it in a new way) is the recognition that it is so much more complex than this. How can we stop the 'pornification' of our society, where young people see scantily clad women writhing suggestively on stage talking about bondage and willingly accepting the titles of bitch or 'ho'? How does this compare to the more subtle yet much more pervasive casual sexism and misogyny present in our media (e.g. over-representation of 'women gone bad' in the press) which IMO is far more damaging. How can we do these things without becoming sexually oppressive, without using censorship and without over-regulating media and setting it up as an unofficial arbitrator of human behaviour?

The whole thing troubles me immensely. I don't like any of it but as yet I don't have any answers.

SGM Could you just confirm that you think 'porn' IS NOT degrading?

I certainly continue to think that it is and I completely stand by my comment that if one partner (typically male) is a heavy user of porn, it is likley to have a detrimental effect on their sex life - which I called the normal, healthy bit.

Quite what is 'suspiscious' about this view, or how it supports a man being in charge or attempts to foist that on others is quite beyond me I'm afraid.

SGB, a large number of Porn "stars" have told their stories.

Now, from what I've seen of porn, it's often made without the use of condoms. Now, given that each "porn star" has sex with a whole host of other "porn stars"there's the risk of STD's.

"Ohhh, but they get tested against STD's", my friend misogynistic acquaintance argued the other day. Actually, a large number are not tested for Hepatitis A, B or C. But, I guess, as long as they're tested against HIV, they're safe...

The stories I've read point towards vulnerable women, who have been easily manipulated into porn, or started off at softcore porn and been pressurised into more hardcore porn. How can you be sure this isn't the case for the women who you're watching on screen?

I ventured onto one of the porn sites to further my argument recently.Was a free porn site, and I didn't even have to click anything to confirm my age. The first thing that sprung to my attention? An advert, covering at least a third of the screen, of a simulated rape. Is that really healthy viewing material? Luckily the person I was debating with said he wouldn't have found that a turn on. But he argued surely it was better for someone to watch that, rather than to act it out? From what I saw, it didn't look very enjoyable. What healthy adult would enjoy that? Only a misogynist would, IMO. How can someone know in advance what's going to be on a porn video they watch?

I have to dash out, but I do have more to say on the matter...