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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Rape apologists on MN

72 replies

IdeopathicPruritusAni · 06/06/2011 09:59

Why are their comments allowed to stand? I don't feel I can be part of a community that displays such material, usually avoid threads (triggery triggery) about sexual violence so am not sure whether it is the norm for posters to show up (on support threads, not hypothetical debates) simply to spout vile, distressing views. I saw lots of anti-feminist posts yesterday that were comedic either intentionally or otherwise but that's a very different situation from a poster looking for support and information following an assault - whether completed or not.

I feel, vicariously, horribly let down by MN. Any other sort of hate speech would surely be deleted?

OP posts:

Namechangeroony · 07/06/2011 12:08

I was raped last year. It was quite rough and degrading. I went along with it quietly in the end, sobbing to myself, to stop the DCs from being woken up.
Immediately afterwards I felt very odd, confused and numb. I wasn't really sure if I had been raped because I'd gone along with it and just pushed and kicked when it got too degrading and put up with the tamer stuff. I posted on MN and was given lots of lovely support and advice but a handful of people were of the opinion that I asked for it in some way. I found a few of the responses quite upsetting, some posters asked for a blow by blow account of what happened during my ordeal.
I wonder if MN should put up some info for rape victims (like rape crisis details) and warn that threads on rape tend to kick off and are probably not the best place for a victim to seek help?

MNHQ

CatherineMumsnet · 07/06/2011 12:30

Hi all, just to let you know that we've posted a response to this issue in site stuff here

Please do continue to let us know your thoughts though.

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/06/2011 12:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MitchiestInge · 07/06/2011 12:41

Oh god I can't believe I have posted about this under my usual name. I actually feel more than a bit like killing myself, so exposed, and as usual nobody to blame but myself.

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/06/2011 12:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Namechangeroony · 07/06/2011 13:02

Thanks StewieGriffinsMom, with help I have come out the other side of what happened.

BTW I agree that the AIBU style of debate is starting to creep into other talk boards. Maybe MN should also remind posters that more decorum is expected outside of AIBU!?

Namechangeroony · 07/06/2011 13:05

Mitchiest: what Stewie said, these things need to be discussed. I can't see anything to be ashamed of in your posts!

differentnameforthis · 07/06/2011 14:07

Tortoiseonthehalfshell

I can understand that. I don't want any one on here being told that it wasn't a big deal/was their fault etc...

Didn't see it from that POV. I thought it was best to stand, so we could challenge it/see it being challenged. Now I see why that wouldn't be a good thing.

allosaurusrex · 07/06/2011 16:10

I'm not in any way a rape apologist, just wonder if we need to find another way to refer to sexual violence that is less hinged on "rape" as a term. On the one hand it makes people think of violent, stranger rapes and therefore lessens the significance of "date" rapes/domestic rapes and on the other hand it puts some women into a category (e.g. myself) of having been raped when I don't feel violated by the experience.

Let me clarify. I had a one night stand and in the early hours of the morning woke up to find man I'd slept with was having sex with me. Now, obviously I didn't consent to this, and I can't say I was hugely happy about it (although went along with it at the time) but we were still both pretty drunk and I don't feel violated or upset when i think back on it. I just think we were young, drunk and a bit reckless. I've also had several sexual experiences which I'm still fairly upset about that definitely caused me a bit of trauma, but none of them could be defined as rape.

So although I accept the man who did that to me wasn't in the right, I don't think he's a rapist, I still think he's a nice guy who was rolling drunk and made a bad choice. On the other hand some other experiences I've had have been much more insidious, I've felt pressure to do something or even gone along with something I didn't want to do and have felt much worse. Is this just because I made the decision do you think? Is it guilt? I'm not sure how productive it is to label a man a rapist and write him off. Yes, he may be a complete arsehole who makes a habit of forcing himself on women, but he may be a misguided product of our society who genuinely doesn't know he's done anything wrong.

I don't have an answer, I just needed to get down my thoughts.

dittany · 07/06/2011 16:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

slug · 07/06/2011 16:19

Why do you think that someone who thinks it's OK to penetrate you without your consent isn't a rapist?

Is it possible that what bothers you is the sheer prevalence of rape? Once you stop making the apologies and cut through the myths, the number and scale of the problem becomes so obvious and horrifying that it's safer and easier to withdraw and asy .."Oh well, it wasn't really rape"

allosaurusrex · 07/06/2011 16:56

It's not that rape shouldn't be called rape, more that the focus should be wider. The fact is that of several less than brilliant sexual episodes in my life, that one is not even in the top 5 - other things have been far more troubling. What troubles me is that the men/boys who have actually hurt and upset me will probably have no idea that they did so because it was not "rape" and I wasn't saying no so they've ticked all the boxes right? I don't know. I honestly don't know the answer, it's more about our sexual culture (and vulnerability when young and impressionable) than consent I guess. I'm just trying to say that lack of consent does not in itself make for a traumatic experience, it depends on the circumstances. However, if lack of consent has occurred I fully support any woman to pursue the matter legally if that is what she wishes - I'm not saying that others in similar situations to mine should also feel the same way as me.

Dittany - I could be wrong about this particular guy - but I'd be more than a little surprised if he turned out to be a serial sexual predator. I'd be far more worried about other sexual partners I've been with who did not do anything illegal IYSWIM.

maristella · 07/06/2011 23:02

The responses on that thread were a real education.

Some crazy, dark opinions that were shocking and downright dangerous.

But they were well talked down by so many of you. It was heart warming to see the words of fantastic, empowering women. And I've followed you over here for a bit more empowerment

AyeRobot · 07/06/2011 23:08

Oh, hi, maristella!

Glad you found us. Sorry we have been talking about you as well as to you.

Have you had a chat with the police yet to see what advice they can give to stop him harrassing you? I know that is a bit obtuse when I have been ranting about police protection on another thread, but I live in hope.

maristella · 07/06/2011 23:18

Still building up to the dreaded email....
Going to get my head straight before composing it, because it has to be effective.

And please do not apologise! What happened to me has happened to so many other women, and worse. It's an emotive issue, and despite the bullshit minority the right to say no got talked about, which is a good thing.
The point that we all have the right to say no and for that to be respected was reinforced

MooncupGoddess · 07/06/2011 23:21

allosaurus - at the moment rape has a very straightforward, easy to understand legal definition (at least, one would think so...) and I'm not sure what would be served by messing with it. People will always react differently to particular experiences - a few years ago I was violently mugged and then dumped rather unpleasantly a few months later, and to be honest the dumping was much worse, but I wouldn't suggest making that illegal!

FWIW, I think most people would be shocked by waking up to find that a guy they'd had a ONS with was having sex with them again. It would certainly freak the hell out of me.

Welcome maristella! Such a lovely name, always reminds me of Britten's Hymn to the Virgin. Good luck with the email.

acopia · 07/06/2011 23:24

hello maristella

I'm thankful that MNHQ have removed the worst of the comments and that you felt and feel supported here

maristella · 07/06/2011 23:40

So am I.

If anybody wanted to convince me I was aprtly to blame for what happened they would have had a tough job on their hands, but I was not the only person accessing their comments, and the comments certainly did not only apply to my experiences.

I just don;t see those strange responses as having a place in our society, especially not after centuries of hard work by committed and dedicated people to make womens rights something we can expect...

Oh I think it's too late for me to make any sense!

swallowedAfly · 07/06/2011 23:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

differentnameforthis · 08/06/2011 01:27

I just think we were young, drunk and a bit reckless......but none of them could be defined as rape

The one you described in your post could be. You woke up with someone having non consensual sex with you. That is rape. Whether you like it or not.

InmaculadaConcepcion · 08/06/2011 09:54

I wonder if it would be worth suggesting to MNHQ that posters who have been the victims of sexual assault/rape/dv etc. and are seeking support might consider posting a thread in the Feminism section of MN instead of Relationships??

Or maybe we should have a dedicated section "Feminist support" or something??

I dunno. But it seems to me, refugee posters from AIBU or Relationships who come here get much better emotional help without the victim-blaming shit that gets peddled by some posters on other parts of MN....

allosaurusrex · 08/06/2011 16:55

I just think we were young, drunk and a bit reckless......but none of them could be defined as rape

The one you described in your post could be. You woke up with someone having non consensual sex with you. That is rape. Whether you like it or not.

I agree that is the definition. I'm not trying to deny it. What I am saying is that I am uncomfortable with defining myself as a victim of rape when the instance was less exploitative, unpleasant and upsetting than other consensual situations I have been in.

The reason that I've had these experiences is due to a combination of youthful inexperience, naivete, alcohol and slightly damaged sexual identity due to a childhood experience which I'm not talking about here.

My first sexual relationship was deeply flawed and relied on me being used and being an object for much of it. There was no rape but it's damaged me much, much more.

My point is sexual education/culture shouldn't just be about telling boys (and girls) that no means no means no and as long as there's consent it's ok. I think we need to talk about respect and openness too- to think and pause to decided if A. yourself and B. your partner are really getting something positive here.

Gah. I don't know, I know I'm off topic, apologies.

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