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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

985 replies

sakura · 28/05/2011 01:15

[[

#at=380 youtube]]

ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it

OP posts:
LRDTheFeministDragon · 01/06/2011 15:20

This thread started with a link to the film, which some of us think is a poor representation of the Witch Trials and also not terribly good feminism, to put it mildly. It didn't start with someone saying 'let's discuss the Witch Trials'. So it's not derailing the thread to discuss the subject of the OP, which is the film and its content.

If you want to talk purely about the Witch Trials, wouldn't it be better to start out from that OP, not from this one, given what's happened on this thread?

Personally, I was really enjoying the last few pages of this discussion and I think it's a shame to write that off just because we did all move off-topic on a thread that's now 34 pages long.

dittany · 01/06/2011 15:24

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swallowedAfly · 01/06/2011 15:28

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dittany · 01/06/2011 15:28

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MillyR · 01/06/2011 15:30

Tyr, I understand the point you're making.

I'm going to describe this in terms of Germany, as it is the best known example, but I think you're saying a similar thing about N.I.

The Germans had a bad time as a consequence of WW1 and the economic situation they were put in afterwards. Part of this was that there was a disruption in their culture and history. Their needs to form an identity were not being met. As part of filling this identity need, they invented a whole load of stuff about their pagan past and their Aryan routes. No distinction was made between the stuff that was invented for their identity and the reality of the past. They took this and went from being a disadvantged nation to being a nation that oppressed others, and this invented identity was one part of the reason why they did this.

At the same time, there were other reasons why the Holocaust happened - there was also a misuse and misunderstanding of science, particularly evolution, and a misuse of technology, and many other reasons.

But just because people have misused technology, and the theory of evolution, and the development of identity through taking on disparate elements of the past, that doesn't mean those activities will always inevitably lead to hatred and victimisation of others. They are still valuable as ideas.

And it is possible to form both a personal and a group identity that recognises that your situation in life includes both contemporary experiences of injustice and that has been built upon injustices experienced by people who were members of your group in the past. It is also possible that people build such an identity, and use it to overcome the injustice their group faces without it leading to the victimisation of another group. I don't think feminism is going to lead the victimisation of men as a group, so I don't have an issue with women discussing their victimisation and where it might have come from.

I do sometimes have an issue with that when it comes to pagans, because there are clear issues with racism in Europe (Odinists especially have to deal with this among their numbers) and treatment of native peoples in North America. But the vast majority of pagans are not building an identity for that reason; they are doing so because mainstream culture isn't meeting their needs. As long as they are aware of the potential implications, which many are, then there shouldn't be an issue.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 01/06/2011 15:31

I did what to this thread dittany - talked about the subject of the OP and disagreed with you? Why is that such a problem? I suspect the clue's in the second part, not the first.

Yes, I do feel angry and contemptuous about that film. I've made it quite clear why. I am, if you really want to know, quite proud of what I've posted on this thread: it made sense, and I think it was the right thing to say, and it wasn't made easier to say by your attitude, which seems to be simply to insult everyone who disagrees with you.

If you don't enjoy this discussion, is there a need to spoil it for others who were enjoying it?

The 'subject of the thread', according to the OP, is the film. Not 'women being oppressed according to Dittany', nor even 'the witch trials', but the film. If you want to discuss the witch trials, you probably do need to start another thread and it sounds as if lots of people would be happy to post on it and talk about what they know and think.

swallowedAfly · 01/06/2011 15:31

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dittany · 01/06/2011 15:32

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dittany · 01/06/2011 15:34

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MillyR · 01/06/2011 15:36

Yes, Dittany I agree. But the point is how? How do these situations develop? Part of looking at a backlash is mapping out how it happens, and what dangers it can lead into.

Some of the rights we have had in the UK we have only had for a tiny amount of time, and we could easily lose them. We could end up going backwards not forwards. That has clearly happened in other countries - Iran for example.

swallowedAfly · 01/06/2011 15:36

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dittany · 01/06/2011 15:36

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swallowedAfly · 01/06/2011 15:36

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MillyR · 01/06/2011 15:37

I apologise that I keep crossposting. I'll come back later.

swallowedAfly · 01/06/2011 15:38

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dittany · 01/06/2011 15:39

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 01/06/2011 15:41

Right, I'm off to the library - SAF, Milly, SGM and everyone else, I've really enjoyed reading what you've been saying and I hope we can get back to it, if not on this thread then perhaps elsewhere. Take care. Smile

dittany · 01/06/2011 15:43

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MooncupGoddess · 01/06/2011 15:59

Hi dittany,

I am fairly new to this section, so forgive me if this has been covered before. But, how would you like to discuss "men's persecution, torture and murder of women"? We can't just list atrocities - that would get very miserable very quickly and not take us any further.

Surely the sort of questions MillyR is discussing (don't go MillyR - your posts are amazingly thoughtful and interesting, to me anyway) - that is, why and how women and other groups are persecuted more in some periods/countries than others - are very pertinent?

Similarly, within a broad movement like feminism there will always be debates about how best to take forward that movement, or about disagreements within it (such as the value of mythology as opposed to data-driven historical analysis, say). Isn't that basically a good thing, even though some of us will inevitably disagree with the exact positions of other posters?

dittany · 01/06/2011 16:05

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MooncupGoddess · 01/06/2011 16:10

But what should we discuss? Should we just have a black page of mourning for the millions of women who have suffered at men's hands, and no Feminism section at all??

The flipside of Milly's discussion is, what structures reduce men's chances to harm women. Isn't that worth discussing?

motherinferior · 01/06/2011 16:11

It wasn't 'undermining nitpicking'. LRD and others were saying 'This film has got everything wrong, actually'. And various posters cited sources that are more accurate about the period. And then the conversation moved on like many threads do.

MillyR · 01/06/2011 16:12

MCG, I'm not going away (well, I am, but not in a flounce). I just have to do some work. I'll come back later.

swallowedAfly · 01/06/2011 16:13

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dittany · 01/06/2011 16:16

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