The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

[sakura]

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ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it

(Wow I put that crassly ... sorry, I'm knackered but hopefully you know what I'm getting at.)

LRD,

The wine is in and the wit is out.

LRDTheFeministDragon Tue 31-May-11 22:48:54

Tyr, you know what? Fuck off, fuck off when you get there, and then fuck off some more.

Is that the level of debate that suits you best, or should I try to lower my tone a little?

"As for saying it must 'sting a bit' to know about women being sold and abused - you arrogant bastard. I hope you don't have a mother, wife or a daughter. How would you feel if it were them? Would it still 'sting a bit'?

Have you told your friends that they have been sold and abused as livestock? You must have been the life and soul of a few wedding parties.
Absolutely priceless

Oh, Tyr, you brought in another stereotype about 'tired and emotional' women just for me?! I'm flattered!

If you head on over to Brave Babes, they'll give you a good sense of how plausible it is that I'm pissed, btw.

SAF - I agree you can tell a lot about men from the way the react to periods, and women's bodies in general. Dehumanize, and then you can more easily abuse. Classic abusive behaviour, writ large.

Ooh, I just remembered, I meant to post ages ago but forgot - SAF, re. menstruation and early culture, I heard that some scientists wanted to test the pigment in the walls of some of the Lescaux caves because they had an idea that it might have contained menstrual blood (you know, the caves that have vulvas and red bits that some people think might be wombs on). Interesting, if so - but I don't think they were allowed to do it/got results from it, sadly.

I don't have the time to wade through the entire discussion, but I would just like to point out that there are students who learn about witch-harrassment long before they get to 'A' level.
I was educated in Lancashire, and most schools' local history covers Pendle and the witches, well before GCSE in fact.
I first studied it in Junior school.

De-lurking here.

TYR you are obviously a MRA and therefore, within a feminist forum, just leave Dittany alone.

Men, already, have the entire world as their arena and we are doing a good job at creating an online arena of our own (on MN and elsewhere). May grate on your sense of (unearned) entitlement or sense of (unearned) superiority but, there you go, so (as I've said) just leave visionary and articulate women such as Dittany alone.

Ah, yes. Women all menstruate together so men can conveniently have much sex with many women at once. That is why the poor things have needs, you know?

I was thinking more, if it's menstrual blood in the paint, it'd suggest menstruation wasn't always considered dirty and disgusting ... but as you say, interpreting any of this stuff is footprints of the gods territory. I just like the idea.

LRD,

As a matter of interest, exactly what would your theory about the caves, the menstrual blood and those "red bits" be were it true?

Ooh, I just remembered, I meant to post ages ago but forgot - SAF, re. menstruation and early culture, I heard that some scientists wanted to test the pigment in the walls of some of the Lescaux caves because they had an idea that it might have contained menstrual blood (you know, the caves that have vulvas and red bits that some people think might be wombs on). Interesting, if so - but I don't think they were allowed to do it/got results from it, sadly.

Weren't there various Native American ceremonies that recognised girls' first menstruation as a way of welcoming them into adulthood? I don't think all the traditional cultural connotations are negative.

SAF - thanks, will check that out.

Tyr - my theory is it'd be interesting. That's why I said it'd be interesting. You know what? That was because I thought it'd be interesting.

Grasping how this thing called language works now?

I'm off to bed - night all.

SAF-you made a lucky escape. Sweatlodges nasty. I did one once, completely creeped me out. I had to escape under the canvas and run away, naked through the heather.

All this spiritual woo makes me itchy to be honest. Give up on rationality and there is too much room for demagogury (sp?)

From the internet: would be interesting to read more about this. I am still working up the courage to empty my mooncup onto my flowerbeds...

From Red Flower: Rethinking Menstruation by Dena Taylor

The Greeks thought that menstruating women had some power over the earth's fertility and that specific rites evolved for that purpose. Women retire to re-birth themselves, and were in tune with the earth's cycles and fertility. One of the ways that menstruating women were able to increase the productivity of the earth was by fertilizing the soil and seeds with their menstrual blood.

I want to come back to Dittany's point from 22.59. To rephrase it a bit, because I want to include the present as well as the past -why do some men collectively feel the need to torture and murder women, and why does it then get enshrined in their institututions.

I am assuming that it is uncontroversial to say that life will be worse for women in a certain culture at a certain time. So while I am not denying that there was discrimination against women in the UK in say, 1930, it is not as bad as being tortured and murdered for being a witch by a powerful instituion at an earlier point in History.

I am assuming that it is also uncontroversial to say that at some times, institutions will focus on other groups, and subject them to more abuse and hatred than the abuse they subject women as a group to, although of course the subgroup being persecuted often contains men, women and children.

So what happens in the build up to a system of extreme persecution coming into existence? How do we move from mild to extreme forms of discrimination/hatred/othering. And why is it sometimes women who are explicitly attacked in an extreme fashion, and why is it sometimes other groups who are attacked in an extreme fashion?