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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

985 replies

sakura · 28/05/2011 01:15

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ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it

OP posts:
MillyR · 30/05/2011 17:13

But any number of periods of History could be described as the systematic, misogynistic persecution of women, particularly the Roman Empire. People aren't taught things from that perspective in school because we live in a misogynistic society. I don't see how this film, which dresses one set of misogynists up as goodies and the other set of misogynists up as baddies is advancing feminism. It is just about swapping one kind of partiarchy for another.

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 17:14

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AliceWorld · 30/05/2011 17:14

Popular culture, sure. But as I said popular culture doesn't make clear the scale of it. Or the nastiness. Popular culture presents witches as a joke.

I'm still stunned that if everyone except me, my husband and Dittany has known this there are still people going round in witches costumes. Kids dressed up as persecuted women, utterly mainstream, and people know this and don't mind?! When I heard about it they included something about the witches bus tour in Pendle, and I remember being stunned they did that. But assumed it was because what I was being told was not in the mainstream, as it was a feminist seminar. But everyone knows and this still happens! Shock

PS Flimflam thanks for the book ref aaages ago. Looks interesting.

AliceWorld · 30/05/2011 17:16

xpost...

dittany · 30/05/2011 17:16

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MillyR · 30/05/2011 17:17

AW, because the meaning of witch isn't all about the witch trials - it has a wider meaning and always has done. It is like complaining that people who go to a toga party either don't know or don't care about slavery.

dittany · 30/05/2011 17:19

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MillyR · 30/05/2011 17:20

It describes the torture and persecution of women in a highly inaccurate manner, in order to make a political point that has nothing to do with feminism. Even if they were genuinely making a feminist point, it is not acceptable to make up an untrue story about women's experiences, when the real facts are known. Those women's stories matter.

It is also unacceptable to outright lie about the treatment of women in Romano-British culture in order to make later Christianity seem worse by comparison. We don't need to diminish the experiences of one group of women in order to make somebody else's seem worse.

dittany · 30/05/2011 17:23

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AliceWorld · 30/05/2011 17:23

Or when Prince Harry goes dressed as a Nazi perhaps?

According to wiki (which I don't trust to feel free to correct if it's wrong) it wasn't just slaves that wore Togas.

Not sure I see the wider meaning of a witch. Some people were labeled as witches and not persecuted?

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 17:27

Pre-Christian Roman culture would endorse the idea that, if a woman is raped, the only honourable and decent thing for her to do is to be so ashamed she kills herself. How can it be anything other than anti-feminist to present this culture as some kind of happy-clappy age of woman power?

Sure, Christianity can be pretty horrible to women. But this idea that pre-Christian culture was great for women is about as plausible as Jean Auel's novels, and a good deal more offensive.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 17:28

dittany, I cannot believe everyone involved in making that film was stupid enough to make a 'mistake' of that scope.

MillyR · 30/05/2011 17:29

No, I meant that togas are associated with Rome - a culture built on slavery. Or we sell viking toys like Playmobil to children - a culture built on slavery. Or kids often dress up as pirates.

Witchcraft is now associated both positively and negatively with magic (harry Potter for example) and people dress up at Halloween because Halloween is associated with the supernatural and magic.

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 17:30

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swallowedAfly · 30/05/2011 17:30

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garlicbutter · 30/05/2011 17:30

I was under the impression that 'witch-hunt' was widely understood to mean the entrapment & persecution of targeted citizens by the authorities: also that this procedure is unfair, irrational and sets neighbour against neighbour. I thought this was why McCarthy's 'Communist' scourge of America was called a witch hunt.

There is a similarity with the Nazi rise and subsequent Holocaust. Picking out one element of a society, labelling its members as 'less than' and as the cause of everyone else's problems, is a well-tried means of garnering popular support and unifying a group - and is what persecution means, correctly.

Mediaeval witch hunts weren't specifically targeted at women, iirc. They were more about unifying the majority against a minority, in this case labelled as those who - by blaspheming the Church - supposedly undermined the health & safety of their communities. Obviously their real crime, if they had one, was undermining the local religious leaders. They were just another means of ruling by fear.

That most of those falling foul of the witch laws were women is probably because women were most likely to practice home medicine. There also seem to have been many instances of women being denounced as witches due to sexual jealousy and other secular reasons. There were still lines of female inheritance in some areas, which the Church didn't like: a witch trial got property away from the female owner and into Church hands.

Since there were many specifically female crimes in the Dark Ages - such as 'gossiping' and 'nagging' - that carried the same punishments, it seems unnecessary to characterise the witch laws as gender-motivated.

garlicbutter · 30/05/2011 17:32

Took so long typing that, I missed many x-posts!
Sorry you're feeling poorly, SAF.

swallowedAfly · 30/05/2011 17:35

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MillyR · 30/05/2011 17:35

Why do you think they just made mistakes Dittany? Leaders of the Pagan movement have been challenged many times over their mis-representation of historical events. It isn't as if they made this film in some sort of bubble.

dittany · 30/05/2011 17:59

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dittany · 30/05/2011 18:03

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MillyR · 30/05/2011 18:05

It isn't a Christian thing. You can do a search on my user name and see that I have declared myself to be an ath and disagreed with Christian perspectives on issues such as homosexuality and the teaching of RE many times.

But the timing of Christianity in their film is not a mistake. It is part of an attempt that they make throughout the film to mis-represent non-Christian European belief systems, and make them out to have far more cultural continuity and be more mono-cultural than they actually were or are. They do so because they are pagans and want to represent the events and women's history in general as being about their belief systems.

dittany · 30/05/2011 18:06

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MillyR · 30/05/2011 18:06

That should have read 'atheist.'

dittany · 30/05/2011 18:07

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