Pro-life/ Pro-choice?

[thefinerthingsinlife]

I am a very vocal supporter of pro-choice. It's a women's body therefore it is her choice whether she continues with a pregnancy.

I've come across alot of pro-life supporters lately who put the right of the baby above that of the mother, which I think is madness.

I was wondering what everyone else thought

I am a feminist.....

......but I think abortion on demand is appalling

Then how can you be a feminist? Taking away abortion on demand is taking away a basic human right of a woman to choose what happens to her own body, to choose to decide when she wants to carry a baby to term & raises that baby. Therefore a very un-feminist act, no?

There is a difference between thinking something is very terrible and thinking it should be stopped. I think that it must be terrible for the women who have late abortions, because whatever the reasons they must be in a fairly desperate state, if I try to empathize I imagine that either they must really really wish that something could have been done earlier but were unable to do so, or that their health was not so precarious or their baby was not so damaged that an abortion was the best option. It must be a very difficult thing to go through and I hope that each and every woman has the best support and care.

I'd also like to see less women having unwanted pregnancies (or indeed wanted pregnancies that they then terminate for whatever reason) and less women having abortions, because I'm sure most women would rather not have had that experience. So yes yes to better education, more self esteem, better access to contraception, and also easier access to earlier abortion. But I don't think that should be in the same piece of thinking as limiting access to late abortions.

One of the things that I think makes the UK (sadly excluding NI) a civilized place is that abortion is seen as a private matter not a political football. My morals and ethics shouldn't affect another woman's choices.

i am definitely more supportive of mother's rights than unborn baby's rights, but i actually think it's too easy to get an abortion right now. I don't mean it shouldn't be freely available, but i fear that women seeking one are not always informed about what is going on inside of them and what their options are.

The problem is that health professionals are put in a tricky position where they can't be seen to be recommending one thing over another, so no one ends up really talking to the woman about her decision and whether it's the right thing for her.

The whole thing about two doctors signing off is ludicrous - I had a termination and didn't exchange one word with a doctor.

i think the late termination thing is a bit of a non-issue since it is so rare.

Let's use the term 'anti-abortion' because we are ALL pro-life! They have hijacked that particular term because it sounds positive and good. In fact, in places in the U.S., girls entering clinics have red paint thrown at them at foul slurs yelled at them!

If we're talking terms I'd prefer women seeking abortions to be referred to as "women" rather than "mothers" in that context.

For anyone who is interested this organisation was the one I saw had a stand at Richmond fete on Saturday. I object to the fact their aims are not apparent to people visiting the stand with it's big banner of a baby's face. If I hadn't been a cynical old bag suspicious and Googled them to find a link to Nadine Dorries on the home page I might have been fooled into thinking I can supporting a different cause.

differentnameforthis Tue 17-May-11 02:23:49
It is something I struggle with as I have a few friends who have had abortions and some of them had what I would consider more valid reasons than others, which I dislike about myself for even thinking
If a woman decided that she needs an abortion, for whatever reason, he reasons are as valid as anyone's. It isn't up to you who has the most valid reason & who doesn't!

Differentname This was my post. As I said, this is something I struggle with, it is not something I want to think, I just do. And I don't know how to get over it. (Maybe by becoming a less judgemental bitch, I know I know)

differentnameforthis Tue 17-May-11 02:41:47
The point of controlling one's own body comes in deciding whether or not to take the risk of conception
WHY do you always assume that pregnancy is the result of not using contraception? It isn't as simple as that, it is as simple as no contraception being 100% effective. Pregnancy can be the result of ineffective contraception. Therefore leading to an unwanted pregnancy.

I think some people are talking about pregnancies which do not happen as a result of failed contraception, but pregnancies which happen because of laziness/drunkeness/unnecessary risk. I do not know anyone who believes that all unwanted pregnancies are a result of not using contraception, but I also do not know anyone who believes that all unwanted pregnancies were unlucky failed contraception.

i don't think it's wrong to think some reasons are more valid than others. We draw those conclusions about all sorts of decisions people make. The risk is if only certain reasons became legally or medically acceptable. Otherwise, I will continue to judge why people have kids or not, get married or not, live beyond their means etc.!

Pro-choice, but think the implications of abortion are not properly explained or discussed beforehand.

If people regret having their children adopted for the rest of their lives, despite knowing it was 'for the best', there's no reason to suppose a woman who has an abortion won't feel similar.

IME that side of things was not even mentioned by either doctor.

and because you know that child doesn't exist, anywhere, and isn't possibly getting on and having a great life with a new family while you get on with yours, it may well be even harder to deal with.

I do not know anyone who believes that all unwanted pregnancies are a result of not using contraception

Neither do I, but it seems that it is always assumed on threads like these that women who became pregnant & had a termination didn't use contraception.

I am always startled to see things like

deciding whether or not to take the risk of conception

There are options long before abortion, contraception, MAP. Some women would be wise to remember those

It's deeply condensing & misogynistic to assume that women only need terminations because she didn't think of contraception! Not at all feminist either.

but I also do not know anyone who believes that all unwanted pregnancies were unlucky failed contraception

This comes over on A LOT of threads about termination! I have had one, and I have read repeatedly that women like me should have been more careful (when in fact I was very careful). Women get unlucky...fact! And until we know what percentage are accidents & what percentages are 'lazy' (which I will doubt we will ever know) we can't start spouting stuff that blames women for getting pregnant!

We shouldn't think she needs a termination any less just because we think she was 'lazy' but yet embrace the woman who has a contraceptive failure. Both are valid, no more no less. If that woman doesn't want a baby, regardless of how it happened, we can't judge her at all.

To do so, isn't feminist!

So termination is harder than adoption? I don't agree.

If I hadn't had my termination & given the child away I would be wreaked with guilt over the life it is leading. Does it know about me, it's siblings. Does it want to find me?

No, they can't be compared. They are both difficult, but I would have found adoption far more destroying than termination.

You can keep an abortion secret, not so with adoption for a start.

Differentname I meant in RL. Everyone I know (I think!) realises that sometimes women get unlucky: FACT but also that sometimes women do not take proper precautions: FACT. How many of each and everywhere in between is unknown.

That's why I said further up the thread that I was a rubbish feminist, because although I think abortion should be freely available and easily accessible for anyone who needs it, I do think it is a big deal (to me) and therefore can't understand anyone who doesn't do everything in their power to avoid getting to the position of needing one. Not saying they shouldn't have one, but that I can't help but think if it could have been avoided, it should have. This is due to my personal feelings about the rights of a foetus and my own emotive feelings about the foetus being a baby, not views that I announce to anyone else, just feelings I have which I can't help.

dingdong, but that's fine! there's nothing wrong with feeling how you do - about any of it. you're perfectly entitled to feel what you feel and think what you think. as are all women (and men). the problem comes when any of us start believing that what we feel or think is any better, or more moral, than what anyone else feels or thinks. how anyone would manage to extricate their "own" opinions etc from tbat of the (very powerful) institutions they might be part of, such as the christian church, is very difficult for me to understand. i feel very lucky not to have had that kind of indoctrianation (sp?) which would make it much harder for me to see that my opinion is just that and will only ever remain that. thank you influential buddhists and pagans.

Saying that a person can't be a feminist and be pro-life is like saying that a person can't be pro-children's rights and be pro-choice. Ridiculous.

For many of us who struggle with the issue, and who aren't simplistic enough to reduce it to an either/or question, the issue isn't about whether a woman is more valuable than a baby, or whether a baby is more valuable than a woman.

The question is about at what point an embryo becomes a baby.

I find it hard to think of an 8-week gestation embryo as a baby, for example. But I think it's delusional not to recognise that a full term living foetus is quite obviously a baby regardless of which side of labour and delivery it's on.

For me, the point of viability outside the womb is an imperfect, mutable, but reasonable line to draw when it comes to abortion on demand. I'm pro-choice, but the "for any reason, up to term" people make me almost ashamed to admit it.

And for the record, I know a few pro-life feminists. My understanding of what it means to be a feminist includes the view that women should be respected as individuals with individual minds, not as some homogenous group who are expected to have all the same views and interests. We should be able to hold and express the political and ethical views that best reflect our individual intellect and conscience, without being told by some self-appointed arbiter that we're out of the club.

I've never considered abortion up to term for non-medical reasons, and I'm not really sure how I feel about it yet, but does anyone think being induced and having the baby adopted would be a reasonable alternative? The woman is no longer pregnant, the baby is alive and brought up by someone who wants it. Of course there can be issues with having a baby adopted, but given that late abortion would also be very hard, this seems like the best alternative to me.

I don't agree that it is about the point at which an embryo becomes a baby. The woman must always come first. If it weren't for her nurturing the foetus (because that is what it is - baby is an unnecessarily emotive word) then it wouldn't be here. Unless anyone is suggesting that women be forced to give birth at whatever time they've decided they no longer wish to continue with the pregnancy, then I think a woman has the right to end that pregnancy.

Jesus PrinceHumperdinck :(

Christine I didn't mean to suggest induction should be compulsory, of course it shouldn't, just that it might be a third option to terminate now or stay pregnant.

Ria No, I don't think a forced induction and delivery would be the best alternative - not actually sure why being induced would make a difference. You would be talking about forcing women into delivery rooms, inducing them, then taking the baby away, then what leaving them in maternity wards to recover?

lots of x posts. Seeing this as an alternative is one of the main reasons that abortion at any point is illegal in NI.