What is the feminist view on single sex education?

[MummyBerryJuice]

I was educated privately in South Africa at girls-only schools largely because my parents wanted me and my brother to be educated in a multiracial setting and during Apartheid state schools were segregated. I have always felt that this was an advantage to me and the other girls as we were under less pressure to conform to girly stereotypes I never experienced any of the commonly held prejudices such as 'girls are better at English and drama and boys are better at maths and physics' etc.

However, now that I am a mum myself and am thinking about the future education of my own children (who currently are only 16 months old and in utero ) I am starting to wonder whether the separation of sexes in education (admittedly not state - which is where our children will be going) is not just another way in which the patriarchy removes women from the mainstream?

it's the pragmatic versus ideal world scenario.
I see your logic Trillian but change takes time and if all the mixed schools near you happen to be shit for girls I don't think it is reasonable to say 'you must sacrifice your daughters' education'.
but I agree that working to make mixed schools more equal is an important thing for feminists to do, we should not ignore the issue and be all 'I'm alright Jack, my dd goes to a girls' school' about it.

I'm not so sure about that Trillian. Surely the feminist stance is to provide girls with an equally good education?

If it isn't possible due to pervasive sexism at the co-ed, it would be foolish of any individual parent to believe they could change that.

As Sybil said the ideal would be an environment within a co-ed school that give equal opportunity, affords equal status and stamps out things like sexist bullying.

X-post

The feminist principle should be one that is best for all women. Even if you then go on to personally choose something else because it is (in the short term) better for you or for your daughters, the principle should be universal.

The question is: do we believe that single-sex schools are better for girls? And do we believe that single sex-schools are better for boys? If the answer is yes yes or no no then there is a clear answer. If the answer is yes for girls but no for boys then we have a problem.

(personally I don't like single sex schools but am happy to go along with the thought experiment assuming that girls "do better" in single sex schools)

I thought it was a pretty well established that girls do do better in a single sex environment. May I ask why you don't like single sex-schools?

I don't know whether boys do better in a single sex environments.

However, although it is a feminist goal that all girls should have an equal education to boys and should work towards attaining that, I don't see how sending an individual girl into a hugely discriminatory environment ( if there is a choice not to) would benefit either her, or other girls in that environment.

I thought girls did better than boys in all types of schools?

By "doing better" you are only talking about exam grades here, I think.

If we are coming up with a feminist principle we should be saying "if I ran the world everyone would do this". So if you believe that girls should go to girls-only schools, you are also saying that boys will all be going to boys-only schools. I think this would be more damaging to society (and worse for all women) than if all children went to mixed schools and we focussed on making those mixed schools better.

Interesting! I have moved my DSs to a single sex prep, and chose the school partly because it had the caring ethos I wanted, and was small, but also partly because the girls in DS1's class at the local mixed primary were always top of the class. Three of them in particular were bright and very sure of themselves, very quick to put their hands up. The boys were starting to not bother trying, even the "clever" ones and I felt year 2 was a bit soon to give up on education. DS1 in particular has come on leaps and bounds this year, and I would say the smaller class sizes of the private sector is the real reason for this. But long term, I want him to have the male role models at school and to see boys can be clever. It is the feminisation of education that has played a part in this decision for me.

Open mind on whether single sex aged 13 + will be the right decision or not - that's when they next move school.

This is a really interesting thread - particularly that so many people are enthusiastic about single sex education, which is not generally the case IME on mumsnet.

I went to a (not particularly academic) single sex girls comp, and found it a very supportive environment. Whenever I've said this in threads on here, I generally get jumped on, told how bitchy girls are, how girls 'have to learn to cope with boys', how girls' schools 'aren't preparing you for the real world' etc.

I think that actually, providing girls with a safe space where they can mature and get an education without having to deal with the sexist reality of the 'real world' can be really helpful. I felt that having had five years in which there was nothing to make me feel odd about speaking up in class/studying physics/hating sewing/etc it was much easier to say 'no, this is not right' when dealing with petty sexism at sixth form and beyond. (Or more usually, 'fuck off and die' or words to that effect )

Of course, it absolutely begs the question of single sex education for boys . . . I suppose that depends on whether the boys' schools also encourage and value cooking, home ec, sewing, and all the 'female' subjects, and encourage their pupils to value all human beings equally, et al - or whether they play to an ultra-masculine ethos (maybe more likely at public schools?)

In reality, and for the majority of us, the separation of the sexes is only 5 years. In most cases, primary is mixed, 6th forms are mixed and HE is mixed. When I was 11 all secondaries in my area were single sex, both grammar and secondary modern.

'By "doing better" you are only talking about exam grades here, I think.'

no, not at all -it's several things: more likely to take the non-stereotypically girly subjects like maths, physics, technology, etc; more likely to take leadership roles; more likely to talk more in class. I was looking at an Ofsted recently for a grammar school in an area we're thinking about moving into and it criticised some of the teachers quite strongly for allowing boys to dominate discussion and thus limit the girls' learning.
Of course it's exam grades as well though. 4 A grades may not be the be all and end all of education but if you had a girl who wanted to a be a doctor and needed those results it would matter a lot.

I don't really see why feminism needs a principle on 'what to do about mixed or single sex education post-patriarchy' because we're such a long way from getting there.
for now it has to be a 2-pronged attack, trying to make mixed education better and offering girls the best education possible via single sex if necessary.
I get the point about the essential contradiction of 'single sex for girls, co-ed for boys' but in practical terms it's not a problem because lots of people will always chose co-ed for their girls and single sex for their boys so it's not like co-ed education is in danger of dying out through lack of girls in the schools.

My observations of mixed sex schooling and then going into a male dominated work environment, is that although I never felt less intelligent than the men, they were so much more confident, assertive and able to "occupy space"...by which I mean physically dominate their environments. I always sit very closed in with legs together while the blokes had no problems sprawling about and basically "owning" their space. I've spent years trying to lay claim to the space in a room the way the men do.

For years I put this down to my very unconfident mother, but thinking back, all the girls said less, and made less noise, and simply occupied less space than the boys at school.

I think it should be clarified here that girls do better (on most if not all levels) in a single-sex environment not because it is intrinsically better for them to be separated from boys but because of the attitudes than exist in the majority of co-ed schools, and in the way the boys, other girls and staff are socialised to approach education.

I do not think all girls should go to girls schools at all. But I do think that in the current state of affairs most girls would benefit from it.

"I do not think all girls should go to girls schools at all. But I do think that in the current state of affairs most girls would benefit from it."

I respect that. I don't think I agree that most would benefit from it but that's just my personal opinion and I don't think there is sufficient evidence for it to be anything more than an opinion. It's not as if we can do a randomised trial (and certainly can't do a blinded trial! :o)

No, that wouldn't be ethical

It isn't "established" that girls do better in single sex education. Some studies have shown it, and some haven't. Alan Smithers study on this suggested there wasn't a difference.
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jun/25/schools.gender

I went to a mixed sex comp and I did like the way it made boys an everyday part of life, people you competed against , got used to, warts and all. Not something you needed shielding from. I want my daughters to view boys like that too, people who are their friends and equals, not something they aren't up to dealing with.

This is something I posted on a thread about single sex schools for girls back in January, can't be bothered to re-think my thoughts.

The massive benefit of my single sex school, was that it put us, the girls, at the centre of everything. For the only time in the life of most females, everything is geared towards their needs and their education and they are not expected to behave in response or opposition or complement, to boys and men. They are just themselves. So they come out of school expecting to be treated as full human beings rather than adjuncts to men. That to me, is the real benefit of a girl's school, not the A level results.

I get Trillian's arguments, but I think atm we're not at a stage where we can afford to give away one area where girls are central. Girl's schools, like mumsnet, are an oasis of female-centred society in a society which is usually all about men. I'd be reluctant to relinquish those spaces.

And this:

I'm also a bit sceptical about the argument that life is mixed so girls should be prepared for it. Life's sexist, racist, unfair, sad, brutish and short as well, but the best defence against that is to protect children from that and give them the confidence and self-esteem to deal with it. I think an all girls' school where the pupils are not being exposed to sexual harassment on a regular basis, can help give girls the confidence to not accept sexism and unfairness as the norm.

This too:

"how to explain a recent survey which found that 1 in 3 secondary school girls have been sexually assaulted at school and over three quarters have witnessed or been subject to sexual bullying?

Girls are regularly called names like slut, whore etc. almost daily and very little is done about it, whereas racial abuse has to be reported to the LEA. Over a quarter claim to have seen porn on mobile phones in school and 25% also claim that their teachers never said unwanted sexual touching, sharing of sexual pictures or sexual name calling are unacceptable.

Given those findings by a large and reputable research survey (YouGov), which used a properly weighted and robust sample group, I don't have any faith in the equal ops policies of all schools. I acknowledge that some schools may have effective anti-sexual bullying policies, but if nearly 1 in 3 girls are actaully being assaulted in school, then that's a massive problem IMO."

Oh and one last point and then I'll shut up for a bit (only a bit mind ):

"nearly everywhere girls and women go, the world is designed for men by men and we are there on sufference and every single adjustment we make to the space to try and make it equally ours, is met by cries of "oh look, feminist fascists have taken over, they're trying to change the workplace/ education system/ political system so that they can do down men!" That is why female only spaces are valuable - they're already designed for girls/ women and they don't have to fight to get them adusted to their needs.

And I'm always suspicious of the argument that says: "oh things used to be like this in the old days, but it's not like that anymore". It just sounds like a variation on the "you're all equal now, what are you complaining about" POV"

As others have said, from a selfish perspective I would send DD to a single sex school and DS to a co-ed school. In reality they both go to co-ed schools because that is what is available.

If I had to set up a system to benefit everyone, rather than just my children, I would make all schools single sex. I don't think there is much difference for boys between co-ed and single sex, but there is a big difference for girls.

I don't see any benefit to sending girls to a co-ed school just because the adult word is co-ed. The later you experience prejudice, discrimination and harassment the better. Experiencing those things in childhood or adolescence is much more damaging in the long term than doing so in adulthood when you have more resilience.

Actually, I am probably going to send my girls to an all-girls' comp...but that is because it's the school I like best that's on offer locally. I would prefer mixed. I feel having blokes around all the time demystifies them. And I think my daughters are up to coping with them, really, too.

I think this is the crux, Herbex ' So they come out of school expecting to be treated as full human beings '

(Well said btw )

One reason for sending girls to co-ed schools is because they might like the company of boys. My 11yo is as friendly with the boys in her (primary, yr6) class as with the girls, in fact this year she spends more time with the boys, she has always had a lot in common with them and less in common with the average girl her age. I would be very reluctant to send her to a single sex secondary, I think she could find that rather hard.

I also quite liked having boys as friends and classmates at school. I may be a feminist but I like having men as friends (as well as women). I'm not that unusual in that.