What is the feminist view on single sex education?

[MummyBerryJuice]

I was educated privately in South Africa at girls-only schools largely because my parents wanted me and my brother to be educated in a multiracial setting and during Apartheid state schools were segregated. I have always felt that this was an advantage to me and the other girls as we were under less pressure to conform to girly stereotypes I never experienced any of the commonly held prejudices such as 'girls are better at English and drama and boys are better at maths and physics' etc.

However, now that I am a mum myself and am thinking about the future education of my own children (who currently are only 16 months old and in utero ) I am starting to wonder whether the separation of sexes in education (admittedly not state - which is where our children will be going) is not just another way in which the patriarchy removes women from the mainstream?

redvelvet that's pretty much my experience of a mixed school too although I think your experiences were worse than mine.

I was one of the "popular" girls but was also stridently anti-discrimination at the time. I bet I was a joy - I refused to do Home Economics on the basis that I was never going to be a housewife and the boys didn't have to do it; I made a huge fuss that the boys were allowed to do fencing in sport and we weren't (they changed that rule after giving some stupid excuse about not having the equipment for the girls); made another huge fuss about being allowed to wear trousers in the winter (they changed the rules so we could); etc.

I suspect I was a royal pain in the arse (nothing's changed) and I don't want my DD to have to fight like that. Why should she?

I'm with you on the "straight to the head" front. I'll be exactly the same. And, if we don't do it, nothing will ever change.

I think - as in many things - co-ed schools have changed for the better since our day. Or my day, certainly.

seeker I hope so... I'm also hoping Waterloo Road isn't any indication of reality

I have no idea what the feminist position is on single sex education but am always interested in exploring this issue. I went to co-ed infants and juniors, one year in a co-ed comp, then an all-girls private seconday school until GCSE level, then co-ed grammar for sixth forum. Our family moved around a lot! My favourite school was the single-sex one and was the one in which I was most successful, although I have to recognise that other factors as well as the female exclusivity played a part, given that it was a small, private school in Ireland.

I think a major consideration is the discussion participation rate in a mixed sex setting and I found this article on a study at Harvard really interesting. It certainly reflects my experience of mixed groups, both in and out of an educational situation.

I am sorry that your school failed you so badly, redvelvet.

Thanks Aye that is fascinating. Particularly found this interesting:

What she found was that women at both of the mixed-sex institutions were verbally less assertive than men, in the sense that they were more likely to use hedges, qualifiers and questioning intonations. By contrast, women at Smith and Wellesley were not only more assertive than women at Yale and Brown, but also most surprisingly more assertive than men at the coeducational institutions

It is fascinating, isn't it? I think the "more likely to use hedges, qualifiers and questioning intonations" finding goes some way to explaining why feminst spaces on the internet (in particular) are seen by some as aggressive and unfriendly. Many of the contributers in those spaces, including on MN, are less likely to use those conversational techniques.

Yes, yes, yes!

I went to a single sex school and it was Catholic. In a weird way I felt the nuns were feminist in their own spooky way as apart from the pope and God they didn't have many males in their life (I assumed they all thought God was male because of the his holy father speak) ... and I got to challenge their beliefs often. I also remember one of the lay teachers telling me how she could not get a credit card / bank cards / loans when she was younger because she was female...

I would send my children to single sex schools, but also allow them to meet socially with different sexes.

One of the best things my school did - inadvertently - was give me a scholarship award where I got to meet other scholarship winners - I was in the minority as a female and I met loads of boys from very posh schools and who had this confidence that their schooling and financial advantage had instilled in them.

I realised very early on (mid-teens) that this was all conditioning and that where their parents had been able to afford to send them was actually very critical as they were all going onto University and going to get powerful roles etc etc etc.

this is how I would relate it to feminism:

the feminist analysis explains why girls do better at single sex schools (and there is plenty of evidence that they do); 'mixed' schools are not necessarily equal, because boys have been conditioned from an early age to behave in a certain way and consider themselves superior, and teachers too (cf the thread the other day about the teacher telling the dd that girls are worse at Physics than boys - even though girls actually get better Physics A level results overall). So a mixed school can turn out to be a hostile environment for girls in a lot of ways, intellectually or in terms of sexual bullying.
Feminism has never had a problem with separatism in certain activities, indeed most feminists would consider all-female groups essential for consciousness-raising, or that the leadership of the feminist movement should be an all-female affair.
In an ideal post-gender society there would be no sense in girls' schools, indeed they would probably be a bad thing, but as feminism acknowledges, we are not there yet.

My own experience is that I went to a girls' school which I think did leave me very unprepared for the sexist environment I then entered at a male-dominated Oxbridge college. I then thrived in a non-sexist mixed environment for my Masters and then went to an all-women's college for my PhD which was heaven. But when I read threads about the shit some girls have had to put up with at school I feel very fortunate in having had these experiences of separation in my education.

I don't know if all-girls' school will be an option for my dd, probably not (would love to send her to The Mount), but one of the main things I will be looking at in choosing a secondary school for dd (even beyond 'do they teach Latin?' ) will be what sort of an environment it is for girls, do they stamp out sexist bullying, do they encourage girls to do maths and science, etc. Because it is absolutely clear that you can't take those things for granted.

Girls' schools vary widely I think - some schools spontaneously develop huge peer pressure to dress glamourously and be thin, whilst in some the fashion is to be individual and strong-minded (shades of Life of Brian's "Yes, We Are All Individuals").

Theoretically the questions are "Is segregation acceptable in principle?" (the answer varies according to your flavour of feminism) and
"Does bringing up boys in an all-male environment perpetuate sexism in society?" especially where the boys in question are likely to end up running the country.

BelleDameSansMerci - I refused to do Home Economics too from a certain age!

I protested by screwing up all the pattern making cuts.

They did bring in much more rounded electives though like boating and so on.

And as for my little boy - I was asking in nursery the other week why he does not seem to be doing much art work and was told that boys don't tend to like doing artwork as much as girls! Livid, but kept my cool and said that I hope my boy surprises you.

I have booked a time to go back and meet with them - as I figured that I was not going to achieve anything by being too angry and this is the first time I have found them to say something sexist.

I said earlier that I think that things have chaged since my school days.

I think I want to qualify thatt statement. They certainly havechanged in practical terms - there are no longer official boys and girls subjects - the home economics/woodwork thing would not occur now. And all state schools have anti bullying policies, which include statements on sexist bullying and harrassment. So on the surface, there is now equallity. However, the issue remains that attitudes don't change as quickly as rules do, and it is easy for Heads to hide behind the surface improvement. So as ever the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I wonder if my question is not more in line with Dilys' : '"Does bringing up boys in an all-male environment perpetuate sexism in society?" especially where the boys in question are likely to end up running the country.'

I don't have a DD (yet), so I suppose, I'm also interested in it from the perspective of educating my DS.

I undoubtably benefitted from my single sex school and (in light of where we live, particularly) would do almost anything to give any DD the same advantages.

I went to a single sex grammar. Dd1(19) was at single sex comp where dd3 is in yr8. Dd2 chose a mixed comp. At the girls' school the teachers (male and female) treat them as young women, at the mixed comp the girls are treated as silly young things and the boys are treated as mates (from obs at parents' evenings and functions). The uniform for girls is ridiculously over-policed and seems to overshadow more important aspects. There's things that dd2 won't do because she'll 'look silly' in front of the boys. I don't think my views on feminism are compromised by whole-heartedly recommending single sex schools, but obviously only based on my own and my dds' experiences.

Qualifier - I recommend single sex schools for girls. I haven't really thought about the aspect for boys. Will read on with interest.

""Does bringing up boys in an all-male environment perpetuate sexism in society?" especially where the boys in question are likely to end up running the country."

If it is the case that girls do better in a single sex environment (and it certainly is a possibility) - then the above statement is just wildly depressing, isn't it.

For the OP - I don't know if there is a single feminist stance. I went to a single sex school, although it was quite good as there was a boys school next door and we were all bussed in together, walked some of the way at the end together and could mix at breaktimes when we were older. That was a nice mix I think.

Whether it is better or not depends on the school I think. My school was very academic and offered a full range of subjects. There was no question about girls not doing physics and maths etc. OTOH a lot of my friends went to a highly academic religious school and not a single one of them did a maths or science A-Level. I know a lot of people who went there so it's a bit odd - there must have been something going on.

If we want boys and girls to understand each other and like each other and treat each other right (while realising that the other is not an alien species) isn't it critical that they actually spend time together?

I didn't actually mean that boys in general would run the country, I was talking about Eton etc.

I got that Dilys. It's still very depressing.

"Petsonalities, ethos and cohort probably make a bigger difference than single or mixed." I definitely agree with this bedlambeast

I got that Dily

Yes, it is Trillian but their is no doubt that the type of interaction is also crucial. Surely in order for them interact as equals they should be interacting in an equal environment? It seems to me that co-eduactional environments are mostly very unequal.

'isn't it critical that they actually spend time together?'

yes. But only if it doesn't compromise their education.
I grew up with no problems relating to boys (two brothers, did lots of mixed sex activities) but sexism came as a big shock.
however there were boys at my university who really couldn't talk to girls because they had been at boys' boarding schools and appeared to think girls were an alien species. That was part of the problem, I think.

SQ I'm not really looking for a unified feminist stance, but more of a discussion about it from a feminist perspective. (I'm not terribly well educated in feminist matters, to my shame, but tend to approach things from a gut-feel. I've learnt a lot lurking on here (mostly lurking) and was just wondering about this yesterday and noticed that it hadn't really been discussed)

"It seems to me that co-educational environments are mostly very unequal."

So we should be working to make those environments better, not taking our daughters out of them. There is more to life than getting 4 As at A-level.

If there is a feminist view on single sex education it must be a view that adds up. "What would happen if everyone did this?" The answer cannot be "put my daughters in single sex schools but sons in co-ed" because then what you are saying is that co-ed is not good enough for your daughters but it is good enough for other people's daughters. Not very feminist at all.