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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When the push comes to the shove...

31 replies

quirrelquarrel · 13/05/2011 16:25

Would you call your little boy a "girl's" name? Dress him in skirts, etc, to hell with the lingering stares and well meant nosy advice?

www.digitaljournal.com/article/306649

A schoolboy called Chris Whitehead- fantastic!
But I wish he was protesting about something else than that.

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Straight2Extremes · 13/05/2011 16:49

Well doing so would kind of make their life a misery, it's one thing to choose something like Chris did but to force it on them is a little different. He also lives in a village I would not advise any boy to do that in a city to do that I doubt he would make it to school unharmed :(

queenofthecapitalwasteland · 13/05/2011 17:01

I saw that on the BBC and was so impressed with him, it takes a lot for a little boy for dress in a cissy girly way, for any reason. He sounds like a mature, resourceful boy and hopefully a future feminist.

quirrelquarrel · 13/05/2011 18:05

But change starts with change!

If we all joined in, he could have started a revolution!

Btw- I like the new M&M ad- a man (getting beaten up) making a snack for a woman! Although there'll be cynics who say that it shows it's the woman's natural job etc...but still.

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HaughtyChuckle · 13/05/2011 18:36

I saw that on TWS good on him!

there was a boy at our school who came one day in a skirt, & make up etc , the head flipped and made him sign a piece of paper o never do it again Shock Confused

quirrelquarrel · 13/05/2011 20:39

I always think getting children to sign bits of paper is so unnecessary- esp. for things like that.

As if it's going to have a lasting impact, and it treats things far more seriously than they need to be treated. A rap on the fingers or a quiet "I'm disappointed in you" should do the trick, if the kid is raised well in the first place.

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PrinceHumperdink · 14/05/2011 12:36

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quirrelquarrel · 14/05/2011 12:56

Assault?

A rap on the fingers?

First it wasn't serious, just illustrative of the level of punishment needed- and second, I meant for minor offences like flouting school uniform rules (e.g. wearing trainers), not necessarily making a stand by e.g. wearing skirts. Bad example maybe. But is a rap on the fingers meaningless? No- associations and so on. Are meaningless bits of paper meaningless? Yup.
Is a good dose of bureacracy so healthy at that age? Probably not.

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melpomene · 14/05/2011 13:34

Eh? How is Chris a 'girl's name? It's a unisex name.

Secondly, he's not a toddler and it sounds like it was his own choice to wear a skirt; his parents didn't dress him in it.

It sounds like he has plenty of confidence and is fairly popular; I'm sure he was aware he could get a bit of stick/teasing but decided he could handle it.

Snorbs · 14/05/2011 14:02

That was an odd story.

On the one hand I thought it was great that he had the confidence to stand up for what he believed in and to make a strong point in a clever way even at the risk of teasing.

On the other, "boy wears skirt" is apparently such a shocking and crazy idea that it becomes national news. A photo and a short story in the local press I could understand, but on the 10 o'clock news? Shock

PrinceHumperdink · 14/05/2011 14:19

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meditrina · 14/05/2011 14:24

In case anyone's interested, here's the AIBU thread about this boy's protest.

quirrelquarrel · 14/05/2011 14:32

Sorry :)

I meant the story as sort of a sideline. Didn't at all suggest that he should be a girl/was forced to be a girl at all.

I'm interested in the first question more. The story was badly chosen- but it's not like there are tons of stories about that kind of experimental parenthood floating around.

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PrinceHumperdink · 14/05/2011 14:49

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quirrelquarrel · 14/05/2011 18:51

The first question-
Yes, I think I would. I don't have a problem with it and this may be terribly naive, but gosh, why shouldn't we be the first to take the plunge? Change begins with change, it's practically the first thing Naomi's taught us. We can sit there putting quote marks around 'boy' and 'girl' when we're talking about material possession, in a forum where everyone agrees and enthuses over the same things, but it's not doing that much, is it? Except for spreading the message when people fall on the forum, and that starts another chain of people sitting around feeling upset and angry.

Big important disclaimer: I am not talking about people who are feminist activists. Obviously they're fab :o
The thing is that it's much harder to do something like have a muscular stocky boy called Arabella than go on a protest march against rape one Saturday. We need to get lots more support behind the stuff only a minority of people are really interested in.

The second-
Well, what I've said. He appears very well spoken and confident and I commend him. But I wish people would do this kind of thing for different reasons- direct the bravery towards the deeper issues.

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Straight2Extremes · 14/05/2011 19:07

Like I said before I think it is fine if a boy chooses to do it but not to have it forced upon him because in most cases there will be consequences which he will be the one to suffer.

quirrelquarrel · 14/05/2011 19:17

Yes, but how many girls choose to make a stand and reject all things "girly"? If you don't give them the option, they'll get the idea that it's normal, or should be normal, to wear loose beige clothes or little frilly tops whether they're a boy or girl, simply because it'll feel normal. It takes a very confident and intelligent and self-sure four year old to decide that kind of thing unless it is nicely and gently forced on them. These are the formative years.

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meditrina · 15/05/2011 06:39

Girls don't need to make a stand on clothing options, though. It is the boys who are limited: non-frilly girls are not uncommon. Boys in skirts are almost vanishingly rare (not counting kilts) and so are the ones constricted by sex on this.

quirrelquarrel · 15/05/2011 09:13

Yes, or vice versa.
My point doesn't really hang on gender.
Names/clothes/toys/parenting approaches, etc.

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PrinceHumperdink · 15/05/2011 10:29

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meditrina · 15/05/2011 12:56

Even Asda sells plain non-glittery, non-frilly, unembroidered jeans and other trousers for girls (and I mean in the ordinary clothes bit, not school uniform). So such items are out there, and sold in the mass market.

I dare there are people who comment on girls who make plainer choices. But I'd be willing to bet a lot that there are far more who would criticise a boy for stepping out of the norm. And I haven't seen a single mass market clothes retailer ever putting frills on outfits marketed for boys.

PrinceHumperdink · 15/05/2011 12:58

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quirrelquarrel · 15/05/2011 13:37

The thing is- not just buying unisex clothes, but defending/encouraging infant crossdressers!
Your DD sounds great, Prince.

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PrinceHumperdink · 15/05/2011 13:50

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blackcurrants · 15/05/2011 13:59

I think the underlying message is: in a patriarchally structured society, it's ok for girls to dress 'a bit' like boys because "of course some girls want to be like boys, everyone knows men are better/more important than women."

But if, heaven forfend! - a boy wants to dress like a girl or a man wants to dress like a woman* - then this is seen as weakening or demeaning to not only that individual but to all penis-havers everwhere - "because everyone knows men are better/more important than women, and so a man who is too like a woman is somehow letting the side down", or some such nonsense.

It's adorable, or at least only a bit threatening, for a girl to be a 'tomboy,' to try to be 'as good as a boy'. It's downright panic-inducing if a boy VOLUNTARILY gives up some of his male privilege to dress as the 'lesser' sex, even for a temporary period of time - because OMG it might reveal that all male privilege is basically bunk, someone will notice that the Emperor is not wearing any clothes, and maybe the whole system will come tumbling down! Quick, get that boy into camo gear, pronto!

*obviously, by 'like a woman' I mean in stereotypically feminine clothes. And not like this woman writing here, who is wearing jeans and a shirt. Like a man. OR a woman.

PrinceHumperdink · 15/05/2011 14:01

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