Feminist Parenting of Boys MAY Bookclub: Jenni Murray's "That's My Boy!"

[blackcurrants]

Looking forward to our discussion on Wednesday, 18th May at, erm - when do people fancy? sometime after the kids are in bed?
7pm? 8pm? I'm five hours behind you all, but around then would work for me, too.

I liked it too, in general, but I did find it hard to get up the enthusiasm to read it whereas I had no problems with Delusions of Gender. I don't know how much of this was it was less fact based that DoG and more of a personal view on childrearing. A lot of it chimed with my own personal opinions and I didnt have too many 'wow. revelation.' moments.

I was however shocked by the study though that said one in ten men would rape a woman if they thought no-one would find out (p 87 in my copy) and I did like her ideas about challenging the male stereotypical behaviour.

How does everyone else feel about her ideas about violent toys and violence on TV- should we ban it completely or allow it so we can talk about it and explain it? What about porn and other distasteful material like rap music?

*was because it was less fact-based

The whole issue of violent toys is a big dilemma because whilst I agree with her zero tolerance view in theory, in reality I feel like a real stick in the mud when I discuss with DS what guns are really for and the damage they do.

I think there's a real difference though because bright plastic kiddie toy guns and the ones that look realistic - like an AK47, I don't think I'd let DS have that anymore than I'd buy DD a pole dancing kit (if I had a DD).

I read DoG alongside this, and agree DoG spoke to me more clearly. However, it would depend on who i was offering this book to: amongst some in my circle Jenni would have a good cachet and brand and she talks with less fury than I picked up from Cordelia Fine. Cordelia's is much more my style, I could almost feel her fingers hitting the keyboard as she typed about the flaws in some of the "research", but I'd definitely think about giving my mum JM to read so she can help reinforce what I do at home.

I'm looking forward to the conversation about porn with DH... and how we handle this with DS. He has access to a computer and a personal stash, which I nearly left him for on discovery, before concluding pretty much every bloke in the western world with internet access would have one: so how do we square zero tolerance? I am tolerant, in that I turn a blind eye: I have my own sins, vices and secrets from him so can't throw stones. I also accept that DH came to the online stuff late enough in his sexual education to understand it does not represent real women, or real life, and that the women are exploited. But handling the hypocrisy? Crikey. That's a big conversation.

Its a bit tricky here as we live in an army town, lots of the parents at DD's (and DS's school in a few years) are army parents and there is quite a heavy army presence on the street. I don't think I would buy realistic guns either, but swords and shields are a definitely possibility and we already have a couple of water pistols (that don't look like guns, but still). My mother allowed us cap guns as children and my dad had an air rifle but the number one rule (whether the gun was made of lego or a finger or was real) was never to point it at somebody and this was very strictly enforced.

I agree with her stance about video game violence as well and to a certain extent TV although we allow some fantasy violence in things like Doctor Who when we are there with them to talk it through.

Porn is a no-no. Absolutely not.

Porn in house would be a definite no from me too.
I remember hearing a nice man on Radio 4 saying that over 90% of porn contains images of violence against women. That is seriously gobsmacking to me. I mean if that's true then how can people NOT see the connection between porn and violence to women?

DS is still only 9. When we walk into the petrol station and there's the spread-legged women on the covers (staring right at us from the not at all invisible top shelf) my DS just goes "Yuk , that is sooooo disgusting!" How I wish he'd stay like that forever .....sigh..

hullo all, sorry I'm late

I've read about a third and it's been a bit of an eye opener for me as I've been concentrating on gender stereotyping being detrimental to girls without realising the impact on my 9 yr old DS at all. I am going to try harder to just let him be himself, and also to talk to him about more stuff.

The other useful point was the fine line between introducing a feminism upbringing for the children without denigrating men as a species in front of DS, which might lead him either to reject my point of view, or feel inadequate about himself.

StewieGriffinsMom - I agree, am trying desperately to flick through to find the bit I was thinking of but I can remember reading a bit where she was trying to big up boys by putting down girls and thinking - why do people have to do that - constantly pit them against each other? Why can't both boys and girls be brilliant and unique? But then I guess it's hard not to in today's society because there are so many boy vs girls stereotypes in the media it's just exhausting. Thanks to that bloody Mars vs Venus book....

That sounds like a good mantra to me SGM

I enjoyed DoG, but Cordelia is v focussed on the impact on girls and women and as such, it's a bit one-sided.

I found this to be a little one sided too, perhaps because it is based so much on her personal experience and she has two boys, so naturally her experience of parenting girls is limited. I couldn't put my finger on examples (not least because DS keeps waking up) but something about it raised my hackles slightly.

Hi,
I've only managed to get as far as 'boys dont cry' but I'm not exactly warming to the tone of the book. Maybe it changes in later chapters but it is a poor comparison to DoG. maybe a sign of the changing times over the last few years?

As a mother of both genders I dont think JM would have wrote this book if she'd had a girl in addition to her 2 boys. The book seems to be her way of alleviating her 'feminist gulit' over feeling pride at having 2 boys.

I think some people try to make out that boys are at some kind of disadvantage nowadays (eg talk of the 'feminising of education'). IMO this is bollocks. We live in a patriarchy and denying boys' advantage in life is like denying white man's advantage living under apartheid.

I dont think that books like this (and that Steve Biddulph (sp?) book) I read a while back help at all.

Hello tougholdbird! I'm with you re. the denigrating mantalk - a few years ago I was having a big gossipfest re. dating with one of my friends who'd been dumped and we were about to do our usual moaning about boyfriends, ex-boyfriends, the whole shebang, I could feel it was going down the "why do men always do that?" route. (In this instance it was why do men get spooked if you, like, text them more than once a day?!!)

DS was nearby doing his thing where he pretends not to listen (but then recites entire conversation word for word 2 weeks later!) and I really had to stop myself with super-human strength and since then have (almost successfully!) banned any statements that begin with "Men are...." or "Women are ..."!! So tough ....

I found the 'Bully Boys' and 'Schoolboys' chapters to be most interesting. The first is about challenging the aggressive and macho stereotypes and the second is about boys (and girls) in the educational system (where she tackles the 'feminising of education' and challenges the idea that girls are doing so well and better than boys). The first few chapters were definitely weaker and a little disjointed, but I did think there were still things to be learnt there.

Jenni Murray doesnt think much of Biddulph and I particularly enjoyed her attack on him on pages 168-9. I don't think I could read his book-that way lies a coronary I think.

joaninha I hadn't realised what a standing family joke I'd been making about DH's inability to do basic domestic stuff and how by doing so, I was giving out a clear message that he couldn't help it cos he was a man. Then I'd expect my DS to somehow not apply this excuse to himself!

darleneoconnor - don't lose heart - you haven't got to the "Schoolboys" chapter yet - she really gives Biddy old Biddulph one in the eye there ...

(love your name btw - she was my role model when I was a grungy teen!)