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Original poster

How do you feel about traditional Punch and Judy shows? DC had one at school on Friday...

26 replies

orangepuffle · 08/05/2011 20:53

My DC (both boys, aged 6 and 8) were "treated" to a Punch and Judy show at school last week.

They told me that Punch hit Judy with a stick when she brought him a cup of tea. Punch also hit the Policeman and the Baker. DC told me, with glee, that Punch coaxed the baby to him before throwing baby down the stairs.

When asked how the show finished, DC reported that Punch said sorry to all of the characters and everyone lived happily ever after.

I have sought other mothers' opinions at school and they seem to find Punch and Judy as hilarious and part of our heritage.

I would love to hear your views on this.

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tougholdbird · 08/05/2011 21:02

There are lot of things that make up our heritage - and they are not all good. There are some people who think anything 'traditiona'l must be intrinsically valuable and worth reviving. I'm not one of them and loathe Punch and Judy - doubt I could stomach sitting through it tbh.

thefinerthingsinlife · 08/05/2011 21:08

I would probably go as far as to go to the school and make a compliant! I abhor Punch and Judy.

Original poster
orangepuffle · 08/05/2011 21:08

Tougholdbird, thanks for that. I seem to be the only one in my social group that finds it stomach-churning.

I was talking to my sister about it today and we agreed that other things in our history, like Black and White Minstrel Shows, were seen as entertaining but now they, and things associated with them such as Golliwogs, are recognised as being racist and wrong.

Punch and Judy simulates DV. End of. Why are my children being shown this as entertainment?

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NorksAreMessy · 08/05/2011 21:10

I am absolutely appalled that this happened at SCHOOL! Children copy EVERYTHING and them seeing school-sanctioned violence is astonishing.

Yes it is traditional, but so was public hanging, caning in school, the stocks, iron maiden...all sorts of terrible things have been 'traditional', but this is 2011 FFS.
What is the justification for them showing this...and how many little darlings hit each other with sticks after seeing this?
Amazing!

Original poster
orangepuffle · 08/05/2011 21:13

thefinerthingsinlife, I do want to address this with the school but am confused as to why the Headteacher, staff and rest of the parents are happy with the scenario.

I have asked DC to repeat the "hilarious" story twice and yes, Judy is beaten with mahoosive stick. (As she was countless times when I was a child and laughed along with it but these are different times now and DV is not a secret nor acceptable).

I asked whether Punch was sent to jail for his horrible crime and they said no, he said Sorry. So....that makes it alright then.....not.

I'm a lone parent who separated from DC's father due to him being the crappest role model on the planet. I don't want the children seeing Men in the role of chief abuser. I would have stayed in a crap marriage for that.

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Original poster
orangepuffle · 08/05/2011 21:16

Norksaremessy, again thank you. I feel slightly more sane again. I spent all afternoon talking this through with friends and I tried to explain to them that if Punch and Judy were replaced with human actors, and child actors, where would be the humour?

Twould be like that "Natural Born Killers" movie where the grotesque canned laughter was piped over all the physical abuse.

School already have me down as a trouble-maker, but I can't let this one lie.

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NorksAreMessy · 08/05/2011 21:23

Hooray for the TROUBLEMAKER!
I would be very interested to see if all the teaching staff think this was a brilliant idea as well.
There are LOADS of ways to use puppets in education, and other puppeteers who would appreciate the gig.
In you go orangepuffle, make them see the error of their ways.
Perhaps you could dress up as a crocodile to add emphasis Grin

Original poster
orangepuffle · 08/05/2011 21:28

You see, the crocodile stealing the sausages was always the funny part!

Not some woman being twatted with a stick.

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SybilBeddows · 08/05/2011 21:34

good for you Orangepuffle.

Stripy tents on beaches - good.
Funny policeman, crocodile, baby etc - good.
Entertaining kids by showing them puppet shows of violence against people who actually have a lot of violence against them IN REAL LIFE - bad.

You'd think there was enough talent in the Punch and Judy community to have managed to come up with some entertaining shows that don't involve laughing at a woman being beaten.

Adair · 08/05/2011 21:34

Ohhh, a friend of mine is doing a punch & judy show for her daughter's birthday. I was a bit Confused when she said so. I could never remember liking them as a kid as I found them quite upsetting. Sort of assumed that a P&J show for modern kids will be a little more politically correct though (I mean, if pass the parcel has been updated then surely so can a victorian puppet show), whether it is appropriate to have as heritage for adults another story. i am total slapstick lover and commedia etc, too but it's the underlying menace behind P&J - 'that's the way to do it' .

Will at least be there with the dc to interpret and put into context - somehow. Punch is a bit stupid, isn't he? maybe it will just be crocodiles and sausages and no whacking babies .

tougholdbird · 08/05/2011 21:40

orange Even one objection might make them think when they go to make the repeat booking next year.

Maybe you could ask them to pass your feedback back to the puppeteer - ask if he could maybe rework the plot to leave out the casual violence to women and children, as you're not that keen on that sort of thing for childrens' entertainment?

dittany · 08/05/2011 21:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
orangepuffle · 08/05/2011 21:55

Tougholdbird, loving your casual feedback idea.

Adair, I remember Punch as being a thick bully. I'd be interested to hear whether your P and J show has been updated.

Dittany, I remember feeling very uncomfortable about Punch and Judy also but the riotous laughter by everyone else made me feel awkward.

I will definitely be following this up with the school and asking them what they feel the educational outcomes were for the children, after viewing the show.

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NorksAreMessy · 08/05/2011 21:56

Oooh, Dittany, 'educational value of the show'...that completely passed me by, I am so used to random TheatreInEducation stuff appearing at DCs various schools and the POINT of it often escapes me
Yes, WTF were they trying to TEACH the children with this?

Adair · 08/05/2011 22:07

Am a Drama Teacher and maybe, just maybe, I would show a P&J show to secondary kids for historical reasons/part of topic on puppetry or Commedia or something. But probably in contrast to a company (like Blind Summit, Trestle) using puppetry today. And always, always with discussion on the relevance/appropriateness to us now.

Assume it was shown as part of Victorians topic? or maybe just for fun! Agree with tougholdbird's approach anyway... You never know the school could be as Shock as you and writing huge letters of complaint to the company anyway. Have seen some awful TiE in my time.

Animation · 08/05/2011 22:09

Always a happy ending though. Punch gets his head wedged in the crocodile's mouth and then the policeman takes him off to jail.

Adair · 08/05/2011 22:10

Really? Good.

Original poster
orangepuffle · 08/05/2011 22:14

Ah, Animation...not in this version. Punch apologised to Judy for beating the shit out of her and the baby. Alls well that ends well...

Adair, I think it was shown as "fun". Dc have been studying Roman Gladiators and Holidays this term. Am struggling to find a link.

Eduactional value and outcomes. I will let you know!!

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princessProudmel · 08/05/2011 22:17

I love Punch and Judy and when my dc's saw a show they loved it too. They were laughing so much!! Brilliant!

BitOfFun · 08/05/2011 22:22

It is so stylised and absurd though, I don't think children necessarily associate it with real life at all. To me, it's just like one of those grotesque fairy tales by the Brothers Grimm. Kids often love a bit of ghoulishness- it's probably got some psychological function to do with managing fears or something.

LeninGrad · 08/05/2011 22:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NorksAreMessy · 08/05/2011 22:46

BOF, ghoulishness is fine. Spooky stuff is fine. Male characters hitting female characters with sticks, not so much. Anybody think of any other examples of where this is funny?
Even the violence of old cartoons is not strong-on-weak violence, it tends to be that the 'weaker' character wins out (Tom and Jerry etc)

frogs · 08/05/2011 23:02

Yy, I mainly remember plots involving Judy asking Punch to look after the baby, which he then promptly drops (and again, and again...) and then Judy comes back and wallops him with the stick for not looking after the baby. Ditto Mr Punch being in charge of the sausages and not paying attention, so the croc comes to steal them. He hits the croc with the stick, but the croc eats the sausages anyway, so Judy wallops him with a stick for letting the croc steal the supper. Possibly the policeman also hits Mr Punch with the stick at some point? I think the plot of P&J is pretty much anything goes.

There is a lot of hitting, admittedly, but I mainly remember Mr Punch being on the receiving end cos he's not the brightest bulb in the packet. Homer Simpson is the direct descendant of Mr Punch, I reckon.

Adair · 09/05/2011 07:04

Am quite looking forward to seeing this now and doing a spot of feminist analysis Grin.

Frogs, that sounds familiar too. Agree, am not so worried if the violence is all-encompassing Hmm as agree that grotesque is not real-life. The OP version sounded a little menacing though. Shockheaded Peter/Struuwelpeter is fab example of enjoyable horribleness!

aliceliddell · 09/05/2011 11:49

Not totally convinced that dv is suitable topic for children's comedy entertainment. Agree Orangepuffle, B&W minstrels are (thankfully) recognised as RACIST, what's the difference? Oh yes, I forgot. P&J is about women being treated like shit. Political correctness gone mad.

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