Princesses

[mumwithdice]

I've been lurking on here for a while and have since namechanged (used to be LLKH). I've learned a lot and this is now one of my favourite parts of Mumsnet so thank you all for that.

In my lurking, I've noticed that princesses often seem to be seen as a bad thing. I was cross about this and then I looked closer. It seems to be a specific type of princess that people object to; a passive or 'pink' princess, as DH puts it, not princesses in general.

I had been cross because when I think of princesses or rather fictional princesses, there are three that spring instantly to my mind and none of them are passive. They are:

Princess Leia (yes, I am a geek)

Princess Cimorene from Dealing With Dragons by Patricia C. Wrede who goes off to be a dragon's princess because she is bored with the princessy things she is supposed to do. She can swordfight, do magic, read Latin and make Cherries Jubilee.

Princess Sorcia from Willow. The woman wears armour and is capable of defending herself.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that it seems to me that what's happened is that the default definition of princess seems to have become passive little flower who waits to be rescued. That is, we should object to that definition rather than princesses themselves.

Equally, I don't think a romance with a prince is necessarily a bad thing as long as the relationship is equal and the romance is not solely based on looks. That is the prince and princess should learn how to fight the dragon together, and then, after a long rest if they so choose, they can have a waltz.

On a related note, thinking out this post has made me realise how creepy the Disney version of The Little Mermaid is. Ariel is 16, falls in love based solely on Eric's good looks as you do when you are 16, runs away and then marries him. She barely knows the man. All she knows is that he can slay a sea-witch. For all she knows he could be like Sondheim's prince who says "I was raised to be charming, not faithful".

Sorry for the sidetrack. To get back to my original track, what I mean is that I don't want my daughter thinking that princesses are inherently a Bad Thing, but rather that the term can have many definitions; that is, if she wishes to, she can be a Warrior Princess (I said I was a geek), a Senator Princess, a Pirate Princess, a Dragon Princess, etc.
Does any of this make any sense to anyone or have I just rambled ?

Hmmmmm. I think the intrinsic problem for me is that a princess has always been part of a male-topped power construct, and even feisty princesses have to fall in with it, ultimately.

What I do think is that no matter what you do, if your daughter is dragged into the current trend for all things princess, it's a bad thing, on myriad levels. Not just because being a Disney princess isn't a generally fab thing to aspire to, but also because she's basically a victim of brainwashing by large companies out to sell you as much as they possibly can. I think the only way to deal with this is to turn your back on it as far as you can.

What MoChan said.

But steering your DD towards the better role-model princesses you mention can at least mitigate the effects (if she goes for it, of course....!)

Agree with the 'steering' thing, IC. My DD is 4 in August and hasn't shown any signs yet of being desperate for princess stuff... but I have a plan of action for if she ever does, and it doesn't necessarily involve ENTIRELY banning talk of princesses...

Maybe you should post your plan of action to help other Mums desperate for princess warding-off schemes, Mo!

It's not just about gender, I also have problems with inherited wealth and aristocracies, rigid class differentials, all those related lefty republican worries.

Interesting. DD and I discuss this a lot. She's a fan of pink princessy stuff. I call them kissy wissy princesses. I talk to her about warrior princesses but she's not interested. I try to steer her away from it. She's more of a warrior type herself but favours the passive pink stuff. I don't want to ban it, I talk to her about it all the time, she knows I hate it BUT SHE STILL LOVES IT.

i suppose i just let it go. dd1 is obsessed with all things princessy, but she's also about the fiestiest 5 year old you'll ever meet. she keeps me on my toes, and would be the first person i'd call on if a dragon needed slaying. I was a bit girly when i was her age, but i'm very much a feminist nowadays, and that's something i've arrived by myself. I reckon she'll do likewise.

Ha, it's not that extensive a plan! Nor do I assume that it will be successful - my step-daughter was very princessy at age 5 despite the fact that her mother, I think, shares my views.

However, I think it's my duty to try. And the plan involves the right kind of stories and books, saying yes to some things (a historically accurate princess frock, for example, rather than a day-glo one with a tacky tiara...?), and no to some things (those horrible plastic princess shoes?), and generally trying to teach her to be discerning about it, in the same way I try to teach her to be discerning about everything in life.

I am not blinkered. I realise I may be on a hiding to nothing. Feel lucky my daughter would presently prefer to dress as a frog, than as Snow White, and dread it becoming otherwise.

PS - I know that some people think that this is a phase that they come out of. I suspect that some girls will come out of this phase unharmed by it. But I think that a lot won't. And that how you deal with probably depends a lot on the child in question.

Well, DD is only 5 months old so I have a bit of time to think and to see what she is like. I definitely went through a princessy phase, but it involved me going on quests and things in my frilly dress (my great-grandmother's green party frock). Now I roll dice and growl at every woman in fantasy because they all, according to illustrations, wear midriff baring armour which is just stupid.

MoChan, good point about corporation brainwashing, I hadn't thought of that. As to male-topped things, some princesses do go on to become queens in their own right, don't they? I mean, if she is inclined to princessness, would this be something to point out too?

As to Snow White, there's a fascinating short story by Neil Gaiman which casts Snow White as a vampire.

I think whether or not they get into it has a lot to do with how much time they spend around other children whose parents have actively promoted pinky princessness (and they do, even without knowing it; they just buy everything in pink from birth, and then say things like "oh but pink's her favourite colour, without any input from us"). My aforementioned step-daughter was in nursery from an early age, with, I suspect, a lot of v. pink children. My own daughter didn't go to pre-school until she was nearly three (I work from home), and prior to that played with an even mix of girls (some princessy, some not) and boys, and I suspect that's why she has thus far avoided the brain-washing to a point (not altogether, she hankers after other aggressively marketed stuff - Toy Story merchandise, for example). The corporation's agenda is enabled by peer groups, and that's how the majority of little girls become so pink-orientated.

Yes, some princesses go on to be feisty queens. Eleanor of Acquitaine, etc. I think it's good to talk about them in their historical context: ie, making it clear what they were up against in those days, but not forgetting to acknowledge that they'd still be up against a lot NOW.

I have 3 primary aged dds, none has had a pink or princess phase. Despite going to nursery young. Sometimes I manage to worry that I'm just too dominating a feminist mother here.
But my oldest has always been an oddball. Not very aware of what the Normal Girl is into. At 3 I did offer her a fairy dressing up frock, as a reward for something. On the way to the shop she asked for a tiger costume instead, and we've never really looked back from there.

That's really interesting (and good!) to hear that they weren't too affected by nursery/school. Gives me hope. I too have been quite strident about not letting DD be exposed to the stuff that I consider unhealthy/anti-feminist... but I feel as though as she gets older, I need to be more prepared to negotiate, simply because I suspect too many hard and fast rules about stuff will make her go the other way... but who knows.

MoChan, that's it! That's exactly it; I don't want to make her go the other way by setting down hard rules.